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  1. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:33pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimpatsu
    My British what? Or are you alluding to my inherent superiority? :tongue11:
    CURSES!!! My arch nemisis uses a typo to his advantage!!! Damn British bastards!!!! :tongue3:

    Tony you do realize that BUDO doesn't encompass all Asian MA, right?
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  2. Kimpatsu is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 2:05pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by garbanzo
    You should especially not confuse learning Shorinji kempo with learning how to fight.

    The passage above is symptomatic of a particular strain of bullshido: the idea that the martial arts are some sort of spiritual path.

    It is particularly common among practioners of Aikido, Shorinji Kempo and Shorin Ryu Kararte, but it exsits elsewhere.

    When I trained in Japan, back in the day, I used to spew that kind of nonsense to anyone who would listen. None of the Japanese karate-ka I met had the fainatest idea of what I was talking about. They were intereseted in learning how to fight, to compete in tournaments and to be "sturongu" as they put it.

    Pure flapdoodle. Pure bullshido.
    Not spiritual path; personal development. And that's precisely what Shorinji Kempo is for. Society depends upon the quality of the individual; the better the individual, the better society. That's what characterises budo, as opposed to bujutsu, bugei, or kakutogi. I have no idea what the karateka with whom you trained thought, but every karatedoka would get it instantly. As would any Shorinji Kenshi.
  3. Kimpatsu is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 2:06pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    CURSES!!! My arch nemisis uses a typo to his advantage!!! Damn British bastards!!!! :tongue3:
    See how easy it is to control a weaker (i.e., non-British) opponent? :smile:
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Tony you do realize that BUDO doesn't encompass all Asian MA, right?
    That's the very point I'm trying to make in another thread, but it's an uphill struggle.
  4. garbanzo is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 2:22pm

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     Style: MMA, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimpatsu
    Not spiritual path; personal development. And that's precisely what Shorinji Kempo is for. Society depends upon the quality of the individual; the better the individual, the better society. That's what characterises budo, as opposed to bujutsu, bugei, or kakutogi. I have no idea what the karateka with whom you trained thought, but every karatedoka would get it instantly. As would any Shorinji Kenshi.
    I stand corrected: personal development. If Shorinji Kempo makes you, and therefore, society better, go for it.

    However, the website I quoted, contradicts you (italics mine):

    "Here [at Shaolin] kempo became the main form of spiritual training for the buddhist monks and the monastery became famous for its fighting arts"

    The definition of budo you give above is a latter day interpretation of an old term, which is fine, but it is by no means authoritative. To say that Westerners "don't get it" because they focus on fighting is quite presumptuous for two reasons: 1) it gives more authoritiy to your limited defnition than is merited 2) a lot of Japanese martial artists practice martial arts in order to fight.

    Budo in the old sense was all about preparing warriors for battle. Those days are over. The samurai are gone. To talk in reverent terms about budo, in the old sense, as if you are pracitcing it by doing martial arts today is embarassing.
    Last edited by garbanzo; 1/03/2006 2:26pm at .
  5. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 2:25pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimpatsu
    Not spiritual path; personal development. And that's precisely what Shorinji Kempo is for. Society depends upon the quality of the individual; the better the individual, the better society. That's what characterises budo, as opposed to bujutsu, bugei, or kakutogi. I have no idea what the karateka with whom you trained thought, but every karatedoka would get it instantly. As would any Shorinji Kenshi.
    BJJ has made me a model citizen. Since I started taking it I have gained:

    -The ability to completely dedicate myself to important goals while ignoring distractions
    -Undying respect for my superiors, which they earned instead of demanding
    -Improved physical condition and a better understanding of my own body
    -A better attitude about competition
    -A sensible haircut

    In fact, it undid all the damage done to me by a school that sought to supplant the martial aspects of its art with these false notions of personal and cultural development. Your vision of society is one of falsely empowered weaklings.
  6. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 3:07pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by garbanzo
    Budo in the old sense was all about preparing warriors for battle. Those days are over. The samurai are gone. To talk in reverent terms about budo, in the old sense, as if you are pracitcing it by doing martial arts today is embarassing.
    There was no BUDO in the old sense. BUDO is a MODERN concept. Prior to that you had BUSHIDO as a code for the Bushi but what they were doing was BUJUTSU not BUDO. The idea of BUDO (ie using MA training to develop character and be model citizens) didn't come until aft the disolving of the class system.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  7. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 3:09pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimpatsu
    See how easy it is to control a weaker (i.e., non-British) opponent? :smile:
    Please remind me to fire bomb you at some later date and time. Thanks. :violent5:
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  8. garbanzo is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 3:23pm

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     Style: MMA, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    There was no BUDO in the old sense. BUDO is a MODERN concept. Prior to that you had BUSHIDO as a code for the Bushi but what they were doing was BUJUTSU not BUDO. The idea of BUDO (ie using MA training to develop character and be model citizens) didn't come until aft the disolving of the class system.

    There is some debate about that, but let's say for argument's sake that you are correct.

    If it is a modern term, it seems all the more absurd to claim that non-Asians just don't get it.

    Unless of course it has as part of its meaning the spiritual development that is emphasized in some circles. If that is the case, BULLSHIDO begins with BUDO itself.
    Last edited by garbanzo; 1/03/2006 4:09pm at .
  9. Kimpatsu is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2006 3:05am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by garbanzo
    I stand corrected: personal development. If Shorinji Kempo makes you, and therefore, society better, go for it.

    However, the website I quoted, contradicts you (italics mine):

    "Here [at Shaolin] kempo became the main form of spiritual training for the buddhist monks and the monastery became famous for its fighting arts"

    The definition of budo you give above is a latter day interpretation of an old term, which is fine, but it is by no means authoritative. To say that Westerners "don't get it" because they focus on fighting is quite presumptuous for two reasons: 1) it gives more authoritiy to your limited defnition than is merited 2) a lot of Japanese martial artists practice martial arts in order to fight.

    Budo in the old sense was all about preparing warriors for battle. Those days are over. The samurai are gone. To talk in reverent terms about budo, in the old sense, as if you are pracitcing it by doing martial arts today is embarassing.
    One of the problems with the misuse of "spiritual" in this context is, IMO, because the English-language Shorinji Kempo website was created by an English-speaking Japanese, without consulting a native speaker. The actual Japanese reads, "shinshin tomo wo kitaeru", lit., "to forge both mind and body", but because the dictionary gives the definition of shin/kokoro as "spirit", ratyher than "mind", the creator stuck that in. The nuance is too different, however.
    That said, the definition of budo is as follows: "do" is "the way", and "bu" breaks down to the number two, representing two people, the verb "to stop", and a spear, which represents fighting. IOW, it's the way two people stop fighting; i.e., one should never exacerbate a onflict, but always use the minimum force necessary to achieve the required goal of avoiding harm (as opposed to inflicting it).
    Interestingly, the last three Japanese books on budo that I read (one by a Shorinji Kenshi, the other two by practitioners of different disciplines) all make the argument that budo is meant as a path of self-enlightenment, and that we should be equally happy if sensei came in one day and announced, "right, from now on, no more techniques. We just medidate for two hours each class", and that if we're not equally happy as we would be learning techniques, then we don't get budo. I asked the author of one of the books to his face whether the Japanese would be equally happy, and he pulled a face and admitted "Probably not... but they should be!"
    More than anything, this suggests to me that there is a "spiritual" crisis of some sort brewing among Japanese martial artists, not least because in one ofthe other books, the author lamentsthe introduction of coloured dogi and so on to judo, which he says was done to make viewing matches on television easier. IOW, he's railing against what he sees to be the cheap commercialisation of judo. Personally, I think such "spiritual" (there's that word again!) backlashes occur at times of increasing Japanese nationalism, which is what we're seeing at the moment with Koizumi's visits to the Yasukuni shrine and the war of words with China. But maybe that's a subject for another thread...
  10. Kimpatsu is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2006 3:06am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by garbanzo
    There is some debate about that, but let's say for argument's sake that you are correct.

    If it is a modern term, it seems all the more absurd to claim that non-Asians just don't get it.

    Unless of course it has as part of its meaning the spiritual development that is emphasized in some circles. If that is the case, BULLSHIDO begins with BUDO itself.
    See my explanation of what budo is in my post above. That's irrefutable (it's even in the Kojien). The issue, therefore, is one of interpretation.

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