Thread: Koryu newaza.
12/15/2005 6:25am, #31You really have to focus almost entirely upon the attacking hand, while maintaining enough distance from the opponent's body so that he couldn't attack you with anything else
Blunt weapons at close range can be jammed into you- not a fun experiance.There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
12/15/2005 6:37am, #32
A guy told me that in Japan Hatsumi was on the ground wth a guy and pulled out a concealed knife and placed it into the opponents thigh and said "This is Bujinkan groundfighting".
We have a general consensus here by those who studied or have knowlege of koryu, that newaza was different becase you either made space for your weapon and finished him off, or made space to defend againt possible concealed weapons. I've seen a lot of stuff in koryu (at least the BBT schools) that involve things done while on the ground, but it's not the modern sub-grappling sort of stuff. So such techniques as jujigatame, triangles and the judo/fusen style of newaza probably flourushed during peacetime when weaponry was not as much of a concern. I doubt two samurai would have gone to the ground and tried to triangle the other from the closed guard. The helmet would't make it effective.
12/15/2005 6:53am, #33
See, that's the thing, if you want to fundamentally control someone's arms on the ground, getting really close to the body (so you can trap the shoulders with your kness from side mount, for example) seems a smart thing to do...
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Sure. Then again, blunt weapons at close range can be grabbed by the defender without any risk to himself, so it becomes as much the defender's weapon as the attacker's. And getting a stick jammed into me while I work a choke is still better than getting whacked repeatedly while the guy with the stick dances outside my striking range.
Again, no truisms here. This is really a silly hypothetical contest and neither "side" has the magic bullet.
12/15/2005 7:09am, #34That's certainly a pretty picture, but you still have to be able to GET there without getting carved up.There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
12/15/2005 7:30am, #35
Koryu newaza was very simple, wither it was armoured ( Kumi Uchi) or plain cothes (jujutsu).
In reagrds to weapons -
Neutralise the armed limb, break it, turn waepon on opponent.
Neutralise armed limb, kill / incapcitate opponent with our won weapon.
Neutralise armed limb, finish off opponent with varied unarmed techniques.
In terms of armed VS unarmed, I don't know of ANYpractical system that does NOT advocate neutralise the armed limb as the highest priority.
12/15/2005 8:51am, #36
Do you think that newaza techs found in Fusen Ryu (which were passed on to judo/bjj) came from a variety of other ryu? A juji from here, a choke from there, and a guard from here could have eventually been brought together to form a complete ground fighting system? I know that many of these techs are found in isolation in other jujitsu schools.
12/15/2005 9:20am, #37
12/15/2005 11:31am, #38
Something I've also thought about the relative lack of groundfighting in the Koryu's is that perhaps this is due to armour. Not so much the being able to get up, but that, from what I've been told, standing locks are alot easier in armour, because the armour restricts your movement a lot. So, I think this explains things like wrist locks,because when you look at the armour, you can see how that wrist would have gotten locked sooner. So I think there might be something to the fact that all that standing stuff worked alot better in the old days, and thats why going to the ground wasnt as likely for someone trained.
12/15/2005 11:32am, #39
12/15/2005 6:13pm, #40Or maybe combat systems designed for the BATTLEFIELD have different priorites and focuses.
Ground grappling in the middle of a battle, is not a good idea.