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  1. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    game dog

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 6:25am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You really have to focus almost entirely upon the attacking hand, while maintaining enough distance from the opponent's body so that he couldn't attack you with anything else
    See, that's the thing, if you want to fundamentally control someone's arms on the ground, getting really close to the body (so you can trap the shoulders with your kness from side mount, for example) seems a smart thing to do...

    Blunt weapons at close range can be jammed into you- not a fun experiance.
    Sure. Then again, blunt weapons at close range can be grabbed by the defender without any risk to himself, so it becomes as much the defender's weapon as the attacker's. And getting a stick jammed into me while I work a choke is still better than getting whacked repeatedly while the guy with the stick dances outside my striking range.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  2. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 6:37am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A guy told me that in Japan Hatsumi was on the ground wth a guy and pulled out a concealed knife and placed it into the opponents thigh and said "This is Bujinkan groundfighting".

    We have a general consensus here by those who studied or have knowlege of koryu, that newaza was different becase you either made space for your weapon and finished him off, or made space to defend againt possible concealed weapons. I've seen a lot of stuff in koryu (at least the BBT schools) that involve things done while on the ground, but it's not the modern sub-grappling sort of stuff. So such techniques as jujigatame, triangles and the judo/fusen style of newaza probably flourushed during peacetime when weaponry was not as much of a concern. I doubt two samurai would have gone to the ground and tried to triangle the other from the closed guard. The helmet would't make it effective.
  3. Spunky is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 6:53am


     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    See, that's the thing, if you want to fundamentally control someone's arms on the ground, getting really close to the body (so you can trap the shoulders with your kness from side mount, for example) seems a smart thing to do...
    That's certainly a pretty picture, but you still have to be able to GET there without getting carved up.

    Sure. Then again, blunt weapons at close range can be grabbed by the defender without any risk to himself, so it becomes as much the defender's weapon as the attacker's. And getting a stick jammed into me while I work a choke is still better than getting whacked repeatedly while the guy with the stick dances outside my striking range.
    If you're the one holding the weapon, you still have initiative. At the very least you are forcing the other guy to respond to you, and there is a lot of weapon retention technique for this very reason. I would also be very impressed if you could shrug off something like a koppo stick being driven into certain squishy places. There are certain types of pain and injury that, especialy if you don't see them coming, will cause a reaction in your body before you can blank it out.

    Again, no truisms here. This is really a silly hypothetical contest and neither "side" has the magic bullet.
  4. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    game dog

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 7:09am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's certainly a pretty picture, but you still have to be able to GET there without getting carved up.
    True dat.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  5. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 7:30am

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     Style: Canadian Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Koryu newaza was very simple, wither it was armoured ( Kumi Uchi) or plain cothes (jujutsu).
    In reagrds to weapons -
    Neutralise the armed limb, break it, turn waepon on opponent.
    Neutralise armed limb, kill / incapcitate opponent with our won weapon.
    Neutralise armed limb, finish off opponent with varied unarmed techniques.

    In terms of armed VS unarmed, I don't know of ANYpractical system that does NOT advocate neutralise the armed limb as the highest priority.
  6. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 8:51am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do you think that newaza techs found in Fusen Ryu (which were passed on to judo/bjj) came from a variety of other ryu? A juji from here, a choke from there, and a guard from here could have eventually been brought together to form a complete ground fighting system? I know that many of these techs are found in isolation in other jujitsu schools.
  7. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 9:20am

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     Style: Canadian Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In his Book "The canon of Judo", Mifune takes credit for "inventing/creating" the Triangle choke, so...

    At a certain point, every technique was created or at least modified enough to be a "new technique".
  8. Tacitus is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 11:31am

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     Style: Crazy Monkey, BJJ, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Something I've also thought about the relative lack of groundfighting in the Koryu's is that perhaps this is due to armour. Not so much the being able to get up, but that, from what I've been told, standing locks are alot easier in armour, because the armour restricts your movement a lot. So, I think this explains things like wrist locks,because when you look at the armour, you can see how that wrist would have gotten locked sooner. So I think there might be something to the fact that all that standing stuff worked alot better in the old days, and thats why going to the ground wasnt as likely for someone trained.
  9. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 11:32am

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     Style: Canadian Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus
    Something I've also thought about the relative lack of groundfighting in the Koryu's is that perhaps this is due to armour. Not so much the being able to get up, but that, from what I've been told, standing locks are alot easier in armour, because the armour restricts your movement a lot. So, I think this explains things like wrist locks,because when you look at the armour, you can see how that wrist would have gotten locked sooner. So I think there might be something to the fact that all that standing stuff worked alot better in teh old days, adn thats why going to the ground wasnt as likely for someone trained.

    Or maybe combat systems designed for the BATTLEFIELD have different priorites and focuses.
    Ground grappling in the middle of a battle, is not a good idea.
  10. Tacitus is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 6:13pm

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     Style: Crazy Monkey, BJJ, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Or maybe combat systems designed for the BATTLEFIELD have different priorites and focuses.
    Ground grappling in the middle of a battle, is not a good idea.
    I agree completly. But what I'm trying to say is that another difference with ground fighting in the koryus, aside from the change in distance due to weapons, is also that there is, when wearing armour, a differance in method of joint locking, sory of like gi and no-gi.
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