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  1. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2005 6:15am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    If you are doing Wing Chun without sparring you are completely missing the point. Its basically a kind of short-fist boxing. Learning forms, doing drills, etc is a great way to come out of X years of martial arts without any fighting skill.

    I suggest you develop a number of different sparring formats and apply these to WC. And make at least 1/2 of your training time sparring for gods sakes.
    You missed the point completely. We do sparring as an extension of what we are taught by Master Chan, but only at advanced level.

    Sparring is a bad way of training wing chun and should be used as an extension rather than part of the syllabus. You must understand the art first and then apply it to other martial arts.

    I'll tell you a funny story about a certain master of wing chun here in the UK. He decided to involve kickboxing as part of the syllabus for his wing chun. He incorperated it at beginner level.

    A couple of guys started up brand new and they were told to spar with a couple of higher grades. The new guys demolished the wing chun guys. It turned out that they were championship level kickboxers.

    We do chi sao which is the same as sparring. It gets the footwork and arms moving but we learn to adapt to whatever our opponent does.

    Traditional wing chun should not use sparring. However, we do it because we know that in todays world you can't always fight art against art, so we experiment, giving us a better understanding of our opponents.

    Are you going to spar in a street fight?
  2. MrMcFu is offline

    Badness will not be rewarded

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2005 6:19am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    We do chi sao which is the same as sparring.
    Best troll ever.
  3. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2005 6:28am


     Style: Wing Chun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What's a troll??
  4. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2005 7:06am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    I'll tell you a funny story ...
    A couple of guys started up brand new and they were told to spar with a couple of higher grades. The new guys demolished the wing chun guys. It turned out that they were championship level kickboxers.

    Riiiight.

    And your point is... wing chun sucks and kickboxing is better? Cool, saved me the effort!

    Seriously dude, it's like you're reading from a fucking script. Get some new material - the entire world and his dog spars. It's time wing chun did too. (If it isn't already.)
    Imports from Japan, Shipping Worldwide! Art Junkie, Scramble, BJJ Spirits, Reversal...
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  5. Astrosmurf is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/08/2005 7:28am

    supporting member
     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    Sparring is a bad way of training wing chun and should be used as an extension rather than part of the syllabus. You must understand the art first and then apply it to other martial arts.
    I think different. Sparring should be introduced early and done in parallell with the traditional drills. Sparring will promote a realistic understanding of the drills.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    I'll tell you a funny story about a certain master of wing chun here in the UK. He decided to involve kickboxing as part of the syllabus for his wing chun. He incorperated it at beginner level.

    A couple of guys started up brand new and they were told to spar with a couple of higher grades. The new guys demolished the wing chun guys. It turned out that they were championship level kickboxers.
    Whats wrong with that? Championship level kickboxers should be able to kick ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    We do chi sao which is the same as sparring. It gets the footwork and arms moving but we learn to adapt to whatever our opponent does.
    If it is the same as sparring why do you say that sparring is wrong. In my opinion Chi-sau can be done in many different ways regarding competetiveness, contact etc depending on what attributes you are trying to enhance. It can be close to sparring but it is still chi-sao and thus a certain restriction on behaviour is there and I think free sparring must be done in parallell or there is a risk of getting further and further away from reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    Traditional wing chun should not use sparring.
    If good training methods are ignored for the sake of tradition you will get stagnation. I prefer evolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    However, we do it because we know that in todays world you can't always fight art against art, so we experiment, giving us a better understanding of our opponents.
    Art against art? LOL!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    Are you going to spar in a street fight?
    Are you going to chi-sau in a street fight?
  6. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2005 7:54am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Astrosmurf
    I think different. Sparring should be introduced early and done in parallell with the traditional drills. Sparring will promote a realistic understanding of the drills.




    Whats wrong with that? Championship level kickboxers should be able to kick ass.



    If it is the same as sparring why do you say that sparring is wrong. In my opinion Chi-sau can be done in many different ways regarding competetiveness, contact etc depending on what attributes you are trying to enhance. It can be close to sparring but it is still chi-sao and thus a certain restriction on behaviour is there and I think free sparring must be done in parallell or there is a risk of getting further and further away from reality.



    If good training methods are ignored for the sake of tradition you will get stagnation. I prefer evolution.



    Art against art? LOL!



    Are you going to chi-sau in a street fight?
    First off, yes I use chi sao in a street fight. Not the traditional poon sao movement, but the sensitivity and flowing movement. The idea is to grab the guy (if he hasn't grabbed you) and use your chi sao to obliterate them.

    Nothing wrong with getting beat by champoins - point is that if you introduce sparring at beginner level, you will create mismatches. There will be guys there who have never done any martial arts against guys who may have experience in sparring. You need to learn an art first (wing chun) and then apply it.

    Also, most people nowadays don't want to learn a fighting art, so at least we offer that choice

    Yes art against art. If you have done two weeks in wing chun and come across a guy you know is good at wing chun, are you going to fight him with the wing chun you have learnt. learning other styles means that you can adapt and change to whatever opponent you get.

    I didn't say sparring was crap, only that it is rare for it to be useful in street scenarios. Yes it develops flexibility, movement, etc. But you want that fight to be over in seconds, not 12 minutes!!

    I train in boxing and Muay Thai and find it very beneficial to my training. If I had done boxing to start and then wing chun, it wouldn't have worked
  7. Astrosmurf is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/08/2005 8:04am

    supporting member
     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    First off, yes I use chi sao in a street fight. Not the traditional poon sao movement, but the sensitivity and flowing movement. The idea is to grab the guy (if he hasn't grabbed you) and use your chi sao to obliterate them.
    I would say that you try to take advantage of some of the attributes you have developed in chi-sau when you fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    Nothing wrong with getting beat by champoins - point is that if you introduce sparring at beginner level, you will create mismatches. There will be guys there who have never done any martial arts against guys who may have experience in sparring. You need to learn an art first (wing chun) and then apply it.
    I do not agree. A person with 10000 hours of sparring behind him would be able to help a noob very much by sparring and coaching him. Sparring is a form of training after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    I didn't say sparring was crap, only that it is rare for it to be useful in street scenarios. Yes it develops flexibility, movement, etc. But you want that fight to be over in seconds, not 12 minutes!!
    So if I spar with competent resistance too much during training I will jump around in circles for 12 minutes and then defend myself? WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    I train in boxing and Muay Thai and find it very beneficial to my training. If I had done boxing to start and then wing chun, it wouldn't have worked
    Why is that?
  8. missile is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2005 1:18pm


     Style: Judo + Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    point is that if you introduce sparring at beginner level, you will create mismatches. There will be guys there who have never done any martial arts against guys who may have experience in sparring.
    Uh yeah. That's actually good, as AstroSmurf pointed out. In Judo, the experienced people are encouraged to spar with the less experienced (e.g. me). The higher belt generally is expected to go a bit easy on us, point out when we **** up and help us learn. And toss us around a bit to give us motivation. This isn't just a useful learning technique, it's absolutely essential, for any martial art.
  9. Jitsuman is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2005 2:36pm


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    You missed the point completely. We do sparring as an extension of what we are taught by Master Chan, but only at advanced level.

    Sparring is a bad way of training wing chun and should be used as an extension rather than part of the syllabus. You must understand the art first and then apply it to other martial arts.

    I'll tell you a funny story about a certain master of wing chun here in the UK. He decided to involve kickboxing as part of the syllabus for his wing chun. He incorperated it at beginner level.

    A couple of guys started up brand new and they were told to spar with a couple of higher grades. The new guys demolished the wing chun guys. It turned out that they were championship level kickboxers.

    We do chi sao which is the same as sparring. It gets the footwork and arms moving but we learn to adapt to whatever our opponent does.

    Traditional wing chun should not use sparring. However, we do it because we know that in todays world you can't always fight art against art, so we experiment, giving us a better understanding of our opponents.

    Are you going to spar in a street fight?
    What a dumbass.

    1. Sparring should be used at all levels, not just advanced. Waiting till you've been training for 10 years to see if your **** actually works against resistance means that you wont be worth **** untill you've trained those hypothetical 10 years. Imaging training in the worst bullshit "martial art" in the world. You'd never know it was bullshit untill you tried it out against somebody. Such blind confidence without testing yourself makes me sick.

    2. Sparring is good. You might not like it, but that's because you're ignorant and untested. If you were to spar with people who have been sparring all along..youd get your ass kicked. if you were to get in an actual fight with somebody who's been sparring hard all along, you'd also get your ass kicked. Know why? Because those that spar know what it's like to hit and be hit, they know what an adrenalin dump feels like, they have conditioning, good head movement, fast hands, tough shins. They have actual deserved confidence. You have none of these things. You have wishfull thinking.

    3. Your analogy is proof that those who spar beat the **** out of those who dont. Are you even reading the **** **YOU** type. "championship kickboxers" got good by contantly sparring. Maybe your guys should do the same. I also doubt that these guys were actually champions of anything, I'm betting they just had some kickboxing experience and exposed the weakness of your style with ease.

    4. "chi sao which is the same as sparring." BWAHAHAHA HAHA HEH HEH BAWHAHA

    5. **** tradition.

    6. No, I'm not going to have to spar in a street fight. know why? Because chances are the guy I'm fighting will never have sparred in his life. Therefore he, unlike my training partners, will put up really lame resistance. Where my sparring partners can last with me, some dumb **** with no sparring experience will get ran right through. This is the point of sparring. To hone your skills with somebody who knows what he's doing, so when you get in a real situation with somebody who doesn't, it's like getting a gift. Then again he might have a gun, so all this hypothetical street fighting talk is really useless.

    7. You need to shut up and listen.
    Last edited by Jitsuman; 12/08/2005 2:40pm at .
  10. amichaell is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2005 3:13pm


     Style: nothing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    kamon, we start sparring after about three months. The first three months are spent doing drills, working on footwork, forms, et cetera. When that third month (or thereabouts...some people take longer) hits we continue with everything we've been doing, but we incorporate sparring. At first sparring is slow, but as you get better everyone (especially the instructors) step up their level; they hit harder, faster, et cetera.

    Honestly, if I hadn't started sparring I wouldn't be in the class. Doing drills and all is great. They are essential, but in my opinion until you start sparring you can't really put it all together and you really can't properly respond to anything.
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