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  1. Gumby is offline

    BJJ Purple Belt

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 10:21am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nerveasian
    The question now becomes, "why hasn't this happened?"

    Is it because judoka are nice guys who are secure enough not to feel the need to enter competitions in other systems and employ these kinds of tactics? Is it because judoka are too insecure to enter BJJ competitions? Or is it because it somehow wouldn't actually be viable?

    Anyone have any ideas?
    Judoka enter BJJ tournaments just as well as BJJ fighters enter Judo tournaments. Both sides will natrually play to their strength, it all depends what you're trying to get when going to that tournament.

    The BJJ fighter in this tournament was not a "bitch" or a cheap player however you want to put it. Ground work is allowed in Judo, and there are no rules that say you cant shoot for the legs. To call him a bitch because he didnt attempt a throw is to call the Eastern Europeans bitches when they started to emphasize a game based on pick ups over the traditional throws.

    The question here is, what did the BJJ guy want to accomplish? If he wanted another trophy/medal on his wall, then he got it. If he wanted to improve his game for BJJ, he just wasted time and money on this tournament. If he thought that spectators would look at him in awe for the great submissions he could throw, Im sure they gave less than a ****.

    Judoka enter BJJ competitions, but the difference here is that often black belts will enter white belt divisions, since on average the two share relatively close ground skills and throwing skill is only a small part of the game. BJJ is like anti Judo in terms of how much it favors the ground over the standup. In Judo, people are always being stood up, in BJJ, its always kept on the ground. You may be able to walk away from someone on the mat in Judo to be stood up, but in BJJ, you MUST engage your opponent on the ground, even if you want to stand back up to your feet (making for throwing and standing back up rather difficult). Not enough action in Judo? Restart on the feet. Not enough action in BJJ? Restart with someone in the guard.


    Now, there are intelligent Judoka and BJJ fighters who cross train intelligently- when I go to Judo randori, I leave my wrestling takedowns and guard pulling in the BJJ room, because thats not what Im here to learn, and many but the better players in the class do not know how to defend them- therefore doing them is pointless.

    The guy in this video isnt going to open anyone's eyes to how great BJJ is or thinking aversely of Judo. In the end, he only hurts himself. If all he wants is to add another trophy on his wall, then he did the right thing, because I would assume that entering a tournament with the mindset he apparently had will not take him too far in his BJJ career.
  2. babo78 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 10:39am


     Style: Yudo, Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawarma
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...2921273&q=judo

    The BJJist is being a bit of a bitch IMO since he shows zero intention of making a throw but just shoots constantly. Showcases the weaknesses of both arts well though, I think: BJJ with bad standup, Judo with inferior newaza.
    I don't think BJJist was being a b*tch at all. I think dude was just trying to win, he was just using his strength while playing by the rules. Nothing in Judo rules say you have to throw, whether you win by submission, pinning, or throwing...still a winning by the rule.

    But I think this is a decent example for need for cross-training. Thanks for clip.
  3. dramaboy is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 10:41am


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anecdotes? ANECTODES? WE DONT NEED NO STINKIN' ANECDOTES!!!!

    But if you WANT an anecdote:
    In a judo tournament about 2 years ago I (a judo ikkyu) fought a known and legitimate BJJ black belt. I lost by ippon (uchimata). This BJJ blackbelt (whose name I can provide per PM) then proceeded to loose by ippon to the next guy (a judo sandan whose name I can provide per PM) and lost his next match to the same guy by uchimata into juji gatame.

    Now please take this anectode and use it to build a whole universe of arguments about how deficient BJJ is.

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  4. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 10:44am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Stange how the BJJ people never enter tournaments when the REAL Judo can be used.
    Why?
    Because they fear the deadly Judo Chop !
  5. MathMasterK is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 2:17pm


     Style: Judo & JJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think anyone should be allowed to throw guard from your feet like that in a judo competition [just my opinion, free of charge] unless it's part of a larger sacrifice throw like tomoe nage (http://judoinfo.com/images/animation.../tomoenage.htm). And the single leg 'takedown' was crap... that guy could get his head taken off trying that on the street.

    If you want to get someone to the ground (so you can dominate him there), then it should at least be done through an attempt at a legitimate technique. Otherwise, the ref should stand them up in short order. I mean, come on, the BJJer could have at least done morote gari (http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/morotegari.html) instead of latching onto the guys ankle like an infant.

    I still haven't figured out the motivation behind BJJ students entering judo competitions though.
    Last edited by MathMasterK; 12/05/2005 2:27pm at . Reason: one of my included links was bad
  6. WhiteShark is offline
    WhiteShark's Avatar

    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 2:18pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbon
    Both guys suck, that single leg is ridiculous and that guy just falls into fetal position?

    I am not up to date on the rules they use at these tournaments, but seems like the BJJ couldn't hang in a real tournament so he went to beat up the Judo people.
    I never went to med school but i'd like to perform your lobotomy.
  7. nerveasian is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 2:51pm


     Style: Getting mounted

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy
    Now please take this anectode and use it to build a whole universe of arguments about how deficient BJJ is.
    I feel like my position is being misrepresented. As I said, it wasn't my intention to style-bash; I was pointing out a weakness that I saw and offering constructive criticism.

    But just to show that the sword cuts both ways, I do think that your anecdote demonstrates a weakness of BJJ, namely that it has poor defense against high-amplitude takedowns. I attribute this to the competition rules of BJJ, which emphasize working toward submission over working for a throw. These factors are analogous to those that I think have caused weaknesses to emerge in Judo.
  8. _Mick_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 2:55pm


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually pulling guard is illegal in Judo. According to the International Judo Federation rules, Article 16 D. "One contestant can take his opponent down into Newaza by the particularly skillful application of a movement which does not qualify as a throw."
    Pulling guard is not considered a skillful application, thus it is illegal. In this case the contestants are to be stood back up. This isn't really the topic at hand, but I just thought I would throw that out there.

    Both arts are very specialized. If Judo focused more on ground work it would lose its distinctive advantage. The same can be said for BJJ and throwing. This is why most of the best grapplers in BJJ and Judo cross train.

    I have no problem with the guy in the video. If he wants to enter a Judo tournament and compete, thatís fine with me. I do have a problem with the Judoka not being able to defend pathetic single leg takedowns, or even attempting to do so. Especially if one of them was a black belt. He should have been able to effectively use morote gari (double leg) as well as defend against it.
  9. daimyo is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 3:12pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Those judoka deserved to lose. That's what you get for trying to rely on the ref to stand you up (read: turtle).
  10. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 4:05pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumby
    The guy in this video isnt going to open anyone's eyes to how great BJJ is or thinking aversely of Judo. In the end, he only hurts himself. If all he wants is to add another trophy on his wall, then he did the right thing, because I would assume that entering a tournament with the mindset he apparently had will not take him too far in his BJJ career.
    Maybe he was just curious to see how he would do in a Judo competition?

    I don't think we necessarily have to attribute him being an asshole as the reason he did this (unless I missed some anecdotal evidence).

    Hell, I'd like to try out a Judo tourney at one day just to see how I do, although I also plan on actually training in Judo at some point in my life as well.

    I think it is fun to grapple against different styles (preferably in a class or randori setting, as opposed to a tourney, but that would be cool too), personally.
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