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  1. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Misguided style basher

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 7:18am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Self-Defence crash course - to punch or palm heel?

    Sceanario: 2-3 hr crash course for people with zero experience, 14 yrs and up. Could be a complete cross-section of the community in terms of sizes, apptitude etc. Courses main aims are to develop awaeness, commonsense and confidence.
    :bowdown:

    Some techniques need to be incorporated.

    Among the choices is whether to have them palm-heeling or punching, or both.

    the pros for the palm heel as I see them:
    a) Less likely to hurt themselves trying it
    b) Less likely to look bad in court afterwards
    Cons...
    c) For most people it isn't as powerful/hurtful to the oppent
    d) Less instinctive than punching

    The pros for punching:
    e) Likely to hurt the opponent more
    f) More natural although fist formation/alignment is often wrong
    Cons...
    g) More likely to injure themselves, including on the pads during the course
    h) could take longer to learn during the course because of fist formation/alignment issues

    Which would you incorporate into the course?
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  2. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 7:57am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Palm heel, just because you don't want people to injure themselves on your course.

    Having been asked to help teach a brief self-defence course in my teens whilst studying TKD, I don't like them. I don't think anybody should feel confident after 2-3 hours training.
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  3. Nid is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 8:53am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Isn't this like a short-hand approach to empty handed combat?
  4. Neildo is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 9:59am

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     Style: FBSD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kickcatcher
    the pros for the palm heel as I see them:
    a) Less likely to hurt themselves trying it
    b) Less likely to look bad in court afterwards
    Cons...
    c) For most people it isn't as powerful/hurtful to the oppent
    d) Less instinctive than punching
    True.

    My 2 cents...

    Quote Originally Posted by kickcatcher
    The pros for punching:
    e) Likely to hurt the opponent more
    f) More natural although fist formation/alignment is often wrong
    Cons...
    g) More likely to injure themselves, including on the pads during the course
    h) could take longer to learn during the course because of fist formation/alignment issues
    i) More likely to look bad in court afterwards
    No?

    I personally prefer open-handed strikes. But I'm weird like that.
    Last edited by Neildo; 12/04/2005 10:02am at .
  5. Odacon is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 10:08am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bits and pieces

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Go with punches, they're far more natural and easier to build on as most people have thrown one or has an idea on how to. 2 hours isn't enough time for fancy stuff you'll forget in a real fight.
  6. Matt Bernius is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 12:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For a short course, palm heel all the way. Here are the reasons:

    1. If you are teaching them "the fence" (Thompson) or "Non violent posture" (Blauer) position, that immediately transitions into palm heels as opposed to fist based punching. And I highly recommend you cover this position.

    2. Palm heel is far more safe a technique for someone who doesn't know how to target and punch. There's little chance of breaking and hand bones on the face. There's less of a chance of catching it on teeth. Further you don't have to worry about proper wrist alignment as you do with a punch.

    3. Successful palm heels can easily transition into eye rakes. Now note, I'm not talking about gouging the eyes. But if you palm heel someone roughly in the nose, it doesn't take much more skill to drag your fingers across the eyes. At worst it will cause a blink reaction which is useful. It also has the potential to scratch a cornea (a good thing).

    4. Many people have an easier time palming someone rather than punching. Seems to have less of a psychological barrier to it.

    As far as your cons, I don't know about conditions in the UK, but:
    1. I don't think there is really much less power behind a palm heel. For the average joe who doesn't know how to punch, I'd expect the results to be about the same.

    2. I'm also not sure about the less instinctual, but I have no proof to back up that claim.

    Personally, the farther into MA I get, the less likely I think I'd punch. BTW, showing elbows is also a good idea for the course.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  7. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Misguided style basher

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 12:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Palm heel then. Thanks Matt, and yes, you guessed the rest, lol.
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  8. Matt Bernius is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 12:35pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kickcatcher
    Palm heel then. Thanks Matt, and yes, you guessed the rest, lol.
    Cool. Should be a great course. I'd definitely suggest covering a couple key concepts (which you already have):

    The average criminal does not want two things:
    1. To get hurt.
    2. To get caught.

    If you make them think that either will happen, your chances of getting attacked will significantly drop.

    Beyond that:
    1. each successful hit buys another hit (hence why teaching to hit on the way out is often a good thing).
    2. Towards, through and past. Often the thing no one expects is to get "run over" the more the defender can move forward to occupy their attacker's space the better. Hence why flailing palm heels and elbows can work really well.

    And you know the rest:

    1. Awareness
    2. Verbal Descalation
    3. Understanding attacker mentality
    4. Understanding attack phases (that you're being attacked/fighting before a punch is thrown).

    Good luck.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  9. Kengou is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 12:58pm


     Style: TKD; BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of the two choices, palm heel strikes. Less chance of injury. But do you necessarily have to teach either one? If it's a really short course, I would actually suggest elbows and knees as a higher priority, since they are naturally hard and it is almost impossible to injure yourself elbowing or kneeing someone else, rather than palm strikes and punches.

    Palm strikes can be injurious, if you miss the heel if your palm and hit higher up, it can pull your wrist back or hurt your fingers. Punches, obviously, can injure knuckles, wrist, fingers, tons of stuff.

    Most fights that people worry about (muggings, assaults) occur entirely or mostly in elbowing/kneeing range. If I had to teach a short course, I would focus on quickly moving into body/groin knees to disable, then escaping. Elbows would be a "bigger gun" in case the kneeing strategy didnt work too well. Knees are fairly easy to throw powerfully, and for average people, taking them to the stomach isnt fun. Elbows might be a bit harder to learn/execute, but probably not as much as learning to throw a strong punch/palm strike with power and good body mechanics (at least in my experience).

    Conclusion: if you're dead-set on teaching palms or punches, I suggest palms (as most people here seem to). But if I were to teach a course like that, I would work on effective in-fighting techniques and then drill the hell out of them.
  10. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 3:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KeinHaar
    Isn't this like a short-hand approach to empty handed combat?
    Ouch! :neutral: Gewd, why don't you just call him an ass while you're at it...

    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
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