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  1. Kengou is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 9:26am


     Style: TKD; BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Doesn't Royce refuse to fight with time limits because of that? That's basically his whole strategy.
  2. lawdog is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 9:35am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus
    I think if a BJJ player is involved in the UFC and he has the ability to win the fight via GnP and dosn't because it dosn't confirm to what BJJ 'is', then that person is suffering from the exact same problem that TMA's suffer from. In a UFC environment, if that person wants to win, they have to adapt.
    I agree with you, but I don't think that's what's happening. It isn't about adapting in order to win, it's about adapting in order to entertain uneducated fans. That's my problem with the G&P.

    IMO, the goal should be to win, not to please the crowd. I have no problem when a wrestler with very little submission skill opts for the G&P, because that is usually the wrestler's best chance of winning. However submission experts often pass up submissions in favor of the G&P, simply for entertainment value. In a perfect world, pleasing the crowd would be an unintended consequence, not the main objective of the fight. They are catering to the lowest common denominator.
  3. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 9:42am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ...and we all know how realistic a fight is that goes on for 40 minutes without interruptions.

    If GNP is working. .. . HA AHA AHAHAHHAAHH! ! ! . . .

    What a bunch of whiners. Maybe they should learn to stand up and fight like a man. :) I love the irony. That's why Sakuraba will always be my favorite Jujitsu man. He makes the pure BJJ guys look like damn fools. Just watched UFC 50 today too. Trig/Verissimo. Man even if he hadn't escaped that triangle I still would have said if it was real, Trig would have put Verissimo in the hospital. He escaped more leg lock than I can count by just punching Verissimo in the face. Nevermind the part where he had trouble elbowing Verissimo in the head only because he wasn't allowed to hit the target right in front of him, the top of the head and had to try and hit the sides even though it was less damaging and more of an awkward angle.

    I'm not dissapointed in GNP. It makes me happy. It saves me the time I thought I had to spend getting a BJJ or Sambo blackbelt. Now I know I can be just "competant" on the ground and still do ok. Gotta keep working on that short power aka the other thread.

    People think GNP is a lame strategy? lol kiss my ass. I think pulling guard is a lame strategy. Anyone who jumps guard on instinct or who needs to pull me down on top of them to get me down deserves to be punched in the face. Catch me with a clean cingle leg or better yet some Judo throw with a Japanese name I don't understand. THAT I can respect. I hate guard fighters.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  4. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 9:47am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog

    I have no problem when a wrestler with very little submission skill opts for the G&P, because that is usually the wrestler's best chance of winning.
    Best chance for a striker too. If I find myself in someones guard, what the hell are my choices really? I don't mean the hypothetical "I" I mean ME the actual me who has spend 10-20 years depending on how you count them learning how to punch and kick and smash the **** out of someone and maybe a couple months and a handfull of workouts with friend learning how to fight on the ground.

    I can either stand up or punch from his guard. I haven't got a chance in hell of submitting someone from there unless he is an absolute idiot or I get VERY lucky.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  5. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 9:59am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Best chance for a striker too. If I find myself in someones guard, what the hell are my choices really? I don't mean the hypothetical "I" I mean ME the actual me who has spend 10-20 years depending on how you count them learning how to punch and kick and smash the **** out of someone and maybe a couple months and a handfull of workouts with friend learning how to fight on the ground.

    I can either stand up or punch from his guard. I haven't got a chance in hell of submitting someone from there unless he is an absolute idiot or I get VERY lucky.
    And that's great. You're making my point. For YOU, the best strategy if you find yourself on the ground would be to strike.

    Once again, as long as the goal is to win the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible, then I think G&P is great.

    My problem with it is that many submission experts pass up submissions in favor of the G&P for the sole purpose of pleasing the crowd. It's the motivation for it I have a problem with.
  6. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 10:06am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How can you tell?

    Is this an assumption based on your percieved strengths and weaknesses of the fighters?

    Did Couture out punch Lidell to please the crowd? Or did it just go down that way?
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  7. PEtrainer is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 10:09am


     Style: wrestling, Bjj, fi ting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    And that's great. You're making my point. For YOU, the best strategy if you find yourself on the ground would be to strike.

    Once again, as long as the goal is to win the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible, then I think G&P is great.

    My problem with it is that many submission experts pass up submissions in favor of the G&P for the sole purpose of pleasing the crowd. It's the motivation for it I have a problem with.
    I love the ground and pound. I am primarilly a wrestler/striker, so it works for me. But if I get sloppy with it I can easilly have someone run "how do armbar" on me.

    I don't know if I agree with that last statement though, if someone turtles on me, I'm going to throw a rear naked on him ASAP. I'm not out to ruin someones face or ears if I can submit them. Guy who do keep throwing usually like to inflict pain.

    Let me also state this is in a sparring situation. I have not had a real MMA fight.
  8. lawdog is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 10:24am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    How can you tell?

    Is this an assumption based on your percieved strengths and weaknesses of the fighters?

    Did Couture out punch Lidell to please the crowd? Or did it just go down that way?
    That's a good question. I've heard a few fighters say so in pre and post fight interviews. I've also read interviews where fighters have said so.

    Also, I see the fighters pass up submissions all the time which could have quickly and efficiently ended the fight. They pass up the submission for the G&P.
  9. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 10:29am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PEtrainer
    II don't know if I agree with that last statement though, if someone turtles on me, I'm going to throw a rear naked on him ASAP. I'm not out to ruin someones face or ears if I can submit them. Guy who do keep throwing usually like to inflict pain.
    Of course you would. You, me and anybody who's trained in submissions. Why risk breaking your hand and expending all that energy if you don't have to.

    But as you stated, we are not pro fighters. Our future in the sport and our income by way of endoresements, etc. doesn't depend in large part on fan appreciation or our popularity with the uneducated masses.

    That's the difference.
  10. _Mick_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 1:20pm


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am sure many fighters pass up submission openings, but they are not doing it to please the rednecks in the crowd. For example, if you pull mount an armbar is often open. However, it is much lower risk to sit on the guy and punch him in the face. If you can finish your opponent from there, why go for the armbar? This is MMA not BJJ.

    As for the whole fighter stand up thing. I think fights without stand ups for stalling and time limits are unbearable to watch. I would rather see some average striker GnP his opponent than watch one of the worlds best grapplers lay in guard for 45 minutes. If a fighter is active from the guard, he will not be stood up.
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