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  1. Angry_Historian is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 7:08pm


     Style: Western Fencing & FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The bare-knuckle boxing in question is not Irish, but English (!).

    Irishmen practiced it too, but it was clearly an English innovation, hence why it is referred to as boxe Anglais by savateurs.
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 7:16pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of course. There's no doubt that classical BKB was largely an English creation, nor that it was practiced in Ireland (and many other parts of Europe, not to mention the British Commonwealth and the USA) as well. Some aspects of it *may* have been perpetuated in Ireland due to the travellers' BKB tradition. It's an interesting hypothesis, but since (AFAIK) there has never been a formal historical study of this subject, all we have to go on is folklore and oral histories.
  3. elipson is offline
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    Ad Hominem rocks.

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 8:14pm

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     Style: BJJ, mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd be intersted to know if the irish bare knuckle was any different than what all the other bare knuckle boxers were doing at the time.

    BTW, there's a big diff between modern boxing and bare knuckle.
  4. Angry_Historian is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 8:21pm


     Style: Western Fencing & FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by elipson
    I'd be intersted to know if the irish bare knuckle was any different than what all the other bare knuckle boxers were doing at the time.
    I'm not aware of any ethnospecific differences between what Irish and English boxers were doing at the time.

    BTW, there's a big diff between modern boxing and bare knuckle.
    I think we're all aware of that (and if not, we should be).

    Boxing was just another aspect of the "Noble Science of Defence" (i.e., fencing). It therefore comes as no surprise that early champions like James Figg were also noted and feared as swordsmen.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2005 9:27pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by elipson
    I'd be intersted to know if the irish bare knuckle was any different than what all the other bare knuckle boxers were doing at the time.
    From what I've read, it would be hard to define specific national styles during the 1800s/early 1900s; it was more a matter of individual fighters in different countries developing their own "tricks", based on a more-or-less agreed upon set of conventions and rules. There's a late 1800s magazine article on that topic available at the AAFLA website.

    For that matter, the rules themselves evolved considerably over time, from the earliest days. Broughton's Rules evolved into the London Prize Ring Rules and then into the Queensberry Rules, with considerable overlap, and then split into professional and amateur codes, with 'scientific boxing" representing the amateur side. The rule changes obviously had a marked effect on the techniques that were in fashion during a given period.

    One of the best resources for BKB as practiced in Ireland during the late 1800s would be Ned Donnelly's 1879 book, "Self Defense, or the Art of Boxing", which is available as a reprint from http://www.lulu.com/content/70173 , or as a free PDF download from http://www.pareddown.com/hosted/stephen/up/Donnelly.pdf . I don't know whether this style can be taken to represent "Irish BKB" of the period, but Donnelly was definitely both Irish, and a champion BKB fighter.

    People interested in this topic would do well to check out the Classical Pugilism Yahoo group - http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/classicpugilism/ . The listowner is big on Irish fighting arts and has a lot of experience both in modern boxing and in reconstructiing the old BKB styles.

    Finally, there is a rumor that Jake Shannon, who edited both volumes of the Encyclopedia of Classical and Bare-Knuckle Pugilism, is working on a DVD which will include highlights of modern BKB matches in Ireland.
  6. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 8:23am

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     Style: Tai Chi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can still study pugilism today. http//www.sirwilliamhope.org/lsd
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  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 8:31am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, it's an offshoot of the wider trend towards reconstructing historical European martial arts. The Classical Pugilism group I linked to earlier includes a number of clubs training in BKB styles from different eras.
  8. Toby Christensen is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 8:46am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Using bag as aggro outlet

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well according to this website http://johnwhurley.com/ima.htm there IS native Irish boxing.
    What am I?:

    I am ignorant, thieving, lying, hypocrital, violent and thoroughly self obssessed. I steal from others to make myself look better, only to make the item or information worse.

    I go on and on and ON about how brave and strong and brilliant and wealthy I am, but in the end I'm all mouth and no trousers.

    That's right children, I'm your average AMERICUNT! and I exemplify AMERICA!:911flag:

    :occasion1

    JohnnyCache's "retort" proving how much he knows about medicine and geography and First World countries:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...=78188&page=22

    Yes, through persistent lack of work and the cultivation of ignorance, he is a true American.
  9. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 9:10am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm skeptical whenever the subject of 'native celtic martial arts' comes up as something distinct from barenuckle pugilism or modern 'western' combat sports, because I know there's such a huge market of people in the north american/australasian diaspora who have a bit of scots or irish ancestry and are fascinated with said cultures.

    There's an element of 'celtophilia' that goes on which is simillar in many regards to orientophilia.

    That's not to say I don't think that the ancient scots and irish had martial arts. I just think that it would have been mostly about weapons, with the unarmed stuff surviving as folkstyle wrestling and pugilism not very different to the varieties you find in England.
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  10. Odacon is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2005 9:59am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bits and pieces

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just a humourous side note, when a match is considered boring the boxers are often kicked or are pelted with rocks to "liven them up".
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