12/01/2005 5:36pm, #1
Submissions moves from throws and strikes.
This is not a "how do sub" thread.
Last night my Enshin instructor showed us the cross body arm bar and some sort of leg lock, which is all well and good. But the problem I saw was how we got into the position to get these. The arms bar was done from a Ura Nage(backward throw/trip).
The leg locks were done from a caught round kick.
In Enshin Competitions takedowns are allowed but it pretty much ends there. There isn't any groundfighting in the competitions. So I don't really know how these got worked into the curriculum, unless there was some pollination from Shidokan.
Basically what I'm asking is has anyone seen these subs from caught kicks and why would someone do an armbar from a throw like Ura Nage why not a choke?
12/01/2005 6:19pm, #2
When you say "cross body armlock" are you talking about a simple juji gatame?
If so, there are many throws/takedowns that transition well into juji gatame. However, I'd say ura-nage is probably one of the least efficient in terms of that transition. Actually, it doesn't lend itself well for a choke either.
So, to answer your question, I have no idea why you'd be learning a transition from ura-nage into juji gatame.
As for the leg locks, yes, when I was training Sombo we did do some transitions from catching a round kick into a leg lock. Never worked it against a resisting opponent, but my sense that it could be an effective technique, if practiced enough.
12/01/2005 9:34pm, #3Originally Posted by lawdog
12/01/2005 10:22pm, #4
I've practiced Osoto Gari to knee on belly to short armbar many times, although I have never landed it sparring. I don't think I've ever even tried it sparring. Usually I'd be so happy to just land Osoto Gari no gi that I'd take side mount and work something, fail and switch to full mount. It would seem to flow very nicely, but then again I think any takedown that goes to knee on belly would. Why not choke? I have never grappled with a gi so I can't say that there are any chokes I know of from knee on belly.
I've never done a kick catch to an ankle lock, but it seems to make sense as long as you sweep the supporting leg first. Check out www.bjj.org/techniques at the bottom and you'll see that both are there.
12/01/2005 10:27pm, #5
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If Im thinking correctly of Osoto Gari (outside reap right?) then an armlock works into that technique just fine.
As for a footlock from a caught kick, I'll assume you're doing the straight ankle lock. It works if you manage to catch the kick and preferably put your opponent on his back (say with an inside reap). I dont like applying the lock from the standing position though.
12/01/2005 10:41pm, #6Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
You're smart to question the transition though. It's one of the most neglected areas of training.
12/01/2005 10:43pm, #7Originally Posted by Gumby
12/02/2005 8:57am, #8Originally Posted by Gypsy Jazz
Why not choke? Because I'm seeing that they're practicing this VERY Jujitsu style and keeping hold of the arm, so when the throw is done they might not have followed the opponent down and can simply sit back into Juji if they know what they're doing. I wouldn't say it's the best option though. I'm a big fan of BJJ's position before submission strategy and would probably want to follow that before attempting anything.
Leglocks from catching a kick.. I dunno. Were I train, we do practice the catching and sweeping the supporting leg, but that rarely leaves you in a good position to get a proper submission. I guess it can be done.. But when you allready have control of the leg and get them down, again I would think position before submission and instead of risking him freeing himself in the confusion and gaining guard, I would want to toss that leg aside and go to sidecontrol or something. But then again, this is all just me.. :PMore human than human is our motto.
12/02/2005 9:02am, #9
12/02/2005 9:23am, #10
I like to transition to a shoulder choke (kata gatame) from o soto gari"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln
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