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  1. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 5:36pm

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Submissions moves from throws and strikes.

    This is not a "how do sub" thread.
    Last night my Enshin instructor showed us the cross body arm bar and some sort of leg lock, which is all well and good. But the problem I saw was how we got into the position to get these. The arms bar was done from a Ura Nage(backward throw/trip).
    The leg locks were done from a caught round kick.

    In Enshin Competitions takedowns are allowed but it pretty much ends there. There isn't any groundfighting in the competitions. So I don't really know how these got worked into the curriculum, unless there was some pollination from Shidokan.

    Basically what I'm asking is has anyone seen these subs from caught kicks and why would someone do an armbar from a throw like Ura Nage why not a choke?
  2. lawdog is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 6:19pm

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When you say "cross body armlock" are you talking about a simple juji gatame?

    If so, there are many throws/takedowns that transition well into juji gatame. However, I'd say ura-nage is probably one of the least efficient in terms of that transition. Actually, it doesn't lend itself well for a choke either.

    So, to answer your question, I have no idea why you'd be learning a transition from ura-nage into juji gatame.

    As for the leg locks, yes, when I was training Sombo we did do some transitions from catching a round kick into a leg lock. Never worked it against a resisting opponent, but my sense that it could be an effective technique, if practiced enough.
  3. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 9:34pm

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    So, to answer your question, I have no idea why you'd be learning a transition from ura-nage into juji gatame.
    I'm sorry it's not Ura Nage it's Osoto Gari. and yes the cross body arm lock is the juji gatame.
  4. Gypsy Jazz is offline
    Gypsy Jazz's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 10:22pm


     Style: Does exercise count?

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've practiced Osoto Gari to knee on belly to short armbar many times, although I have never landed it sparring. I don't think I've ever even tried it sparring. Usually I'd be so happy to just land Osoto Gari no gi that I'd take side mount and work something, fail and switch to full mount. It would seem to flow very nicely, but then again I think any takedown that goes to knee on belly would. Why not choke? I have never grappled with a gi so I can't say that there are any chokes I know of from knee on belly.

    I've never done a kick catch to an ankle lock, but it seems to make sense as long as you sweep the supporting leg first. Check out www.bjj.org/techniques at the bottom and you'll see that both are there.
  5. Gumby is offline

    BJJ Purple Belt

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 10:27pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If Im thinking correctly of Osoto Gari (outside reap right?) then an armlock works into that technique just fine.

    As for a footlock from a caught kick, I'll assume you're doing the straight ankle lock. It works if you manage to catch the kick and preferably put your opponent on his back (say with an inside reap). I dont like applying the lock from the standing position though.
  6. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 10:41pm

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    I'm sorry it's not Ura Nage it's Osoto Gari. and yes the cross body arm lock is the juji gatame.
    O.k, yes juji-gatame from Osoto Gari works fine, however it's still one of the less desirable throws from which to transition into juji-gatame, because of the direction you end up facing in relation to your opponent. It's not as natural of a transition as a hip throw for instance, where the flow into the juji is very natural, quick and requires less movement than it does from O-soto.

    You're smart to question the transition though. It's one of the most neglected areas of training.
  7. lawdog is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 10:43pm

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumby
    As for a footlock from a caught kick, I'll assume you're doing the straight ankle lock. It works if you manage to catch the kick and preferably put your opponent on his back (say with an inside reap). I dont like applying the lock from the standing position though.
    That's the way we applied it in Sombo. We would NEVER attempt any leg lock without first controlling the leg, which always meant goint to the mat.
  8. fanatical is offline
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    Hi, guys

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 8:57am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsy Jazz
    I've practiced Osoto Gari to knee on belly to short armbar many times, although I have never landed it sparring. I don't think I've ever even tried it sparring. Usually I'd be so happy to just land Osoto Gari no gi that I'd take side mount and work something, fail and switch to full mount. It would seem to flow very nicely, but then again I think any takedown that goes to knee on belly would. Why not choke? I have never grappled with a gi so I can't say that there are any chokes I know of from knee on belly.

    I've never done a kick catch to an ankle lock, but it seems to make sense as long as you sweep the supporting leg first. Check out www.bjj.org/techniques at the bottom and you'll see that both are there.
    Gi chokes from knee on belly? The Baseball bat choke is decent if you jump off to sink it. Any type of cross chokes can be done, but you'll sacrifice your base if you're not careful.

    Why not choke? Because I'm seeing that they're practicing this VERY Jujitsu style and keeping hold of the arm, so when the throw is done they might not have followed the opponent down and can simply sit back into Juji if they know what they're doing. I wouldn't say it's the best option though. I'm a big fan of BJJ's position before submission strategy and would probably want to follow that before attempting anything.

    Leglocks from catching a kick.. I dunno. Were I train, we do practice the catching and sweeping the supporting leg, but that rarely leaves you in a good position to get a proper submission. I guess it can be done.. But when you allready have control of the leg and get them down, again I would think position before submission and instead of risking him freeing himself in the confusion and gaining guard, I would want to toss that leg aside and go to sidecontrol or something. But then again, this is all just me.. :P
    More human than human is our motto.
  9. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 9:02am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Canadian Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any throw in which you have control of an arm goes well into an arm bar.
    As for leg locks off of kicks, as longas the kicks are waist level or higher and you are not "reaching" for them, why not?
  10. Te No Kage! is offline
    Te No Kage!'s Avatar

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 9:23am

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     Style: BJJ/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like to transition to a shoulder choke (kata gatame) from o soto gari
    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

    Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!
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