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  1. PirateJon is offline
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    and good morning to you too

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 2:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: MT/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah don't train machines. Not a good thing at all. Just look at the Terminator.


    (we need someone to say this? oy!)
  2. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 2:35pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JFS_USA, please respond to my post, I'm curious if I'm getting the right impression.
  3. Jason74 is offline

    Professional Fighter

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 2:36pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Shadow box in a mirror. Be honest with what you see and correct defects immediately.



    Dude, you aren't getting any sympathy considerations from me. I'm a walking train wreck and have no hesitation about going all out any time.

    Fighting = Injury ... and it's not always the opponent who gets injured. Accept it, get over it ... or find something else to do ... you know ... take up knitting.



    Mental visualization and imagery work are good things.
    Shadow boxing has its place in my training, but I dont see that as really a total solution to learning a skill, especially a pugilistic skill.

    I never once asked for your sympathy, truth be known, I neither need it nor desire it. In my opinion, if you are "going all out" all the time and not suffering injuries, I call into question your workout partners skill, or your definition of "all out." When I have injured myself or all my training partners through too much contact, what have I accomplished? You say that you are a train wreck of injuries, sparring all the time will do that...we, as fighters, have a shelf life. While I think that full contact and semi-contact sparring is necessary to even consider fighting for real, I also recognize that you can not do it all day every day.

    As far as fighting equalling injury, check out my tag line, it does not say contributing member, it says professional fighter. I did not buy my way into a place of honor here, I fought for it. I am aware of what fighting is. However, only an idiot does not recognize that when you are injured you can not fight full speed and power against another opponent.

    You seem to bring alot of issues to the board in regards to this not being good or that not being good, but when a person, myself, asks some genuine questions you remain vague? What gives?

    What I was trying to see is what is your solution for replacing all the "sacred cows"? I eagerly await your reply.

    J
    Last edited by Jason74; 11/28/2005 2:41pm at .
  4. Steve Richards is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 2:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: Hap-Gar Si-Ji-Hao

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting that natural killers - predators - tend not to engage in non-target specific activity other than thru play, as juvenilles. Even there its a refinement of what already exists as an innate program. There's a lot to learn from predators natural behavior. If you were a human predator, you would, as with all predators, be concerned with the 'targets' shape, motion and behavior, and your attack would likely concern dealing with these as efficiently as possible, whilst minimizing damage to yourself.

    In a more acessible context: human to human 'social' combat, these same principles still apply. Anything not actually involving direct target specific activity should work to refine these basics, and not to set up an abstract, interfering or parallel processing line.

    So, some line of entrainment that models the de-construction of the human form, with maximal efficiency is likely to work well. It requires little in the way of 'data' driven information processing, only a governing program that deals with the essentials of human shape and motion. 'Hypotheses' about what the target is 'doing' by way of response can be funnelled down to action thru its form and motion capacities. This, frees up information processing capacity and makes success more likely.

    Steve.
  5. Jason74 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 2:45pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Richards
    Interesting that natural killers - predators - tend not to engage in non-target specific activity other than thru play, as juvenilles. Even there its a refinement of what already exists as an innate program. There's a lot to learn from predators natural behavior. If you were a human predator, you would, as with all predators, be concerned with the 'targets' shape, motion and behavior, and your attack would likely concern dealing with these as efficiently as possible, whilst minimizing damage to yourself.

    In a more acessible context: human to human 'social' combat, these same principles still apply. Anything not actually involving direct target specific activity should work to refine these basics, and not to set up an abstract, interfering or parallel processing line.

    So, some line of entrainment that models the de-construction of the human form, with maximal efficiency is likely to work well. It requires little in the way of 'data' driven information processing, only a governing program that deals with the essentials of human shape and motion. 'Hypotheses' about what the target is 'doing' by way of response can be funnelled down to action thru its form and motion capacities. This, frees up information processing capacity and makes success more likely.

    Steve.
    That is an intersting observation, one that I back up. When I bounced and had to fight alot, very busy club bad environment, I found myself changing the way that I fought. Whereas before I would fight in a more "sporting" way, ie I would try to fight with my opponent, but as I had to fight alot I started gravitating to things that would stop the fight in as short a time as possible with me "winning." I.e. Chokes, strikes to critical targets, etc. Instead of looking for a KO, I looked for a way to get my hands on their throat.

    Wonder if this is similar to animals seeking out efficient ways to bring down their prey?
  6. Steve Richards is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 3:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: Hap-Gar Si-Ji-Hao

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason74
    That is an intersting observation, one that I back up. When I bounced and had to fight alot, very busy club bad environment, I found myself changing the way that I fought. Whereas before I would fight in a more "sporting" way, ie I would try to fight with my opponent, but as I had to fight alot I started gravitating to things that would stop the fight in as short a time as possible with me "winning." I.e. Chokes, strikes to critical targets, etc. Instead of looking for a KO, I looked for a way to get my hands on their throat.

    Wonder if this is similar to animals seeking out efficient ways to bring down their prey?
    Seems like it to me. I reached a ceiling in my TCMA back in 1982, and as a front-line police officer, I had to square reality in a human predatory environment with the way that TCMA are 'traditionally' entrained, so I decided to approach the whole thing from a non martial arts perspective. The best way seemed to me to be to look at the way we 'naturally' want to approach things - which is to go to an anticipated 'completion point'. The end is present at the beginning (the goal) and it guides us towards achieving it. This is how predators work, they have 'completion' as their goal, and everything they do is focused on that outcome. The essentials of human shape and motion, both actual and potential, are the base line. If shape is de-constructed - if its integrity is disrupted enough, it falls apart. Grappling is a natural medium to find this.

    With research into information pprocessing psychology, the rest of the model came thru quite quickly. The minimal amount of information necessary to 'shape' a human being is actually very small, just a few 'map points'. With refinement, the whole shape, position and realtive motion of a human target can be 'processed' with only a couple of such points. This 'cognitive map' is an overlay, that can be projected aggressively onto the target. What you deliver with, is your configured platform, but that platform is led by a cognitive model. It has two processing pathways: data-driven and hypothesis driven. Data is slow and reactive, hypothesis is fast and proactive. 'Sensitivity drills' can be dispensed with if the cognitive map is entrained, and then projected like a 'HUD'. The 'processor' becomes progressively more refined thru practice and it can eventually devole from conscious control, which free's up available awareness/consciousness for error-correcting feedback.

    Cheers,

    Steve.
  7. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 3:55pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    On a note:
    I like my heavy bag, my spar-pro and my grappling dummy.

    So there.

    * pulls down pants and moons everyone *
    Damn ... I was doing "okay" until the full Moon suddenly appeared.

    I like to slam the heavy bag from time to time myself. Just someting gut level satisfying about pounding the **** out of the bag. Best thing is the Cops don't show up a short time later ... :laughing7
  8. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 3:58pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark
    JFS_USA, please respond to my post, I'm curious if I'm getting the right impression.
    Which post and where?

    Here: BambooTempleUSA@aol.com is my personal Email addy. This thread is moving too damned fast for me to see it all.
  9. FeiLo is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 4:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taiji

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason74
    That is an intersting observation, one that I back up. When I bounced and had to fight alot, very busy club bad environment, I found myself changing the way that I fought. Whereas before I would fight in a more "sporting" way, ie I would try to fight with my opponent, but as I had to fight alot I started gravitating to things that would stop the fight in as short a time as possible with me "winning." I.e. Chokes, strikes to critical targets, etc. Instead of looking for a KO, I looked for a way to get my hands on their throat.

    Wonder if this is similar to animals seeking out efficient ways to bring down their prey?

    This is something I've wondered about for a while now, at least since JFS's The horse isn't broken thread.

    Why is it that untrained fighters or "street fights" end so quickly compared to MMA/boxing/etc? Is it just because one person is that much better in the street fight? Maybe in MMA matches it's just because both are so well trained that they can ward off most attacks (lol, that's funny)?

    I think it's the same reason endurance isn't as important as it's made out to be. In a fight where someone is willing to commit to maximum force immediately,regardless (to an extent) of their own safety, instead of dancing around "feeling each other out", then the fight will end fairly quickly.

    I'm not suggesting that the one who is more willing to commit will be the winner, just that there is a big diference between sport/MMA and Martial Arts. I'm not trying to advocate "one-hit-kills/KOs" or any such silliness, but I'm not advocating fighting with someone for 15 minutes as valid for self-defense either.

    Watching TUF2 this season really made that "The horse isn't broken" thread a little more relevant to me. When I heard Matt Hughes teaching techniques to open the eyebrow to get the fight stopped due to bleeding, it was a bit of an eye-opener about the UFC fights.

    Hearing (some) MMA folks pop off at TMA/TCMA people about unrealistic training is as humerous as hearing about the value of pressure points and form-work from Dillman.

    Training for a 15 minute bout where I have to conserve energy and use lesser-force strikes while I wait for an opportunity for a KO doesn't seem as "alive" as some people would want me to believe.

    Should I only be training/practicing for 4-5 minutes at a time and only with a live opponent? No. Does it mean that I won't use the heavy bag or do pad work with a partner? No. Alive training, sparring, pad/bag work, and cross-training/MMA is still the answer, but there should be a balance or harmony.

    In other words, I can use a stick to dig a hole in the ground and it'll get the job done, but I'd sure as hell look for a shovel first. I don't think anyone should blindly follow training methodologies without maintaining a critical eye and always looking for new opportunities. If it were that easy, we could all just train BJJ, boxing, and Muay Thai and never need to think about it again.
    "KI water is available on request.($20+ donation suggested)."
  10. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 4:12pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JFS made me quote myself because he can't search a thread... ;)

    Is this experience similar to what you are talking about? You haven't specificly mentioned overtraining yet but it seems to be right at the edge of what you are critisizing.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark
    I tend to agree with JFS about intensity. My evidence is from my own experience with a few different coaches. I swam and ran X-country and outdoor track in high school. I am also pretty gifted when it comes to Cardio. (I've run Triathalons on a whim)

    The best way to illustrate this is the 2 coaching approaches in high school. My X-country and Track coach was a multiple time state champion and had the longest win streak in high school history for awhile. Something like 700 dual meets. He was a great coach. My Swim coach was also the football coach and had a good team that was fed talented swimmers. He made strong swimmers out of weak swimmers and tired swimmers out of great swimmers. We also won some state championships but nothing like track.

    X-country practice compared to Swimming was laughably easy and i never understood why until much later in life. We would run everyday on a specific schedule to build up or tear down musce depending on the season. We would have hard distance runs on monday and long flat runs on tuesday with an easy run on wed and a real speed workout on thrusday followed by recopvery friday and a long slow run on saturday. Swimming was hard sprints all the time and miles of yardage. Swimmers got shoulder problems and runners got state championships.

    The key was using one or two exhausting workouts a week mixed with recovery time. Versus swimings ultimately destructive approach of hard workouts every day.

    In comparison my current coach doesn't ahve as much control over my schedule so he has to apprais our condition at each practice somedays it is easy and lots of technique. That is not less valuable than a painful day of execises.

    Good example: We are training Thai pads. Coach is wearing a belly pad and holding thai pads and moving around so I can kick a real target. If I am sharp and fresh enough this can be easy because it increases skill. If not he will just make it a workout and have me pound away like a bag. Or if i get tired and my form sucks he just waves me off and does no more technique training. Sloppy training is not valuable.
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