The Fallacy of Training Machines

[Locu5]

Both. The Human Condition is authentically "holistic" in nature. It's really not possible to "section" us off into completely isolated elements.

Even modern Western Medicine accepts this as fact. As an example, someone who is in unresolved physical pain for 6 months or more has a high probability of suffering from Depressive Syndrome.

If you cue off of incorrect keys then the associated response pattern is corrupted as well. If you cue off of correct sensory input but repeatedly respond incorrectly then you carry that defect forward.

Fantastic. I just wanted to make sure I understand your point. The input affects the output; easy to understand from a system's perspective. The issue comes in how to best approximate the target activity, no? What levels of separation, and what kinds (visual, spatial, emotional, etc) are acceptable for training for a given activity?

Let us take training for an MMA fight over a fixed period, say 6 months. This is a very accessible example and should provide a framework that is recognizable and has a significant amount of data* in the experiences of a significant number of posters.

How would you prepare a fighter for this?


* This data will understandably be more subjective than objective in nature, affecting our ability to make absolute objective claims off of it, but will still present valuable input.

[Ronin]

My humble opinion:

Training, for me, is to work on specific physical components of my MA.
Cardio vascular endurance
Speed
Muscular strength
Balance
Flexablity

Sometimes I can work on all of them in one session, sometimes I focus on one or maybe two of them.

Practice, now that is where I "perfect my technique".
I NEVER go to the wall and certanily never focus on anything other than technical ability.

I use partners when I can, equipment when I have to.
Heavy bag, to me, is a great TRAINING tool, and it CAN be a good practice tool.
Most equipment are training tools and not for practice.

Training yould be tying a belt to a HB bag and working pulling and pushing and entering moves for judo, as an example and practice would be, with a partner, working on the abilty to read his moves, to see where my foor should go when he pulls, how he reacts when I push and where his bodyweight shifts, things like that.

Practise time is NOT the place for full bore "workouts", you go at maybe 50%, max 75%.

BUT, training is the time you try to push it, to get over that "wall", wither it be a training session focused on endurance or one focused on strength.

[Omar]

In many ways, WC plays much like small frame H'ung Ga.

This is a drum I have been thumping formany years now.

I've said it on numerous threads in numerous contexts and almost always got a big fat "WTF?".

I never learned Tid Sien but I did learn Sup Yin and that little intro with the focus on the "figure 8" stance really highlights it. Then throw in the opeining sequence to Fu Hok and what the hell just take almost any other part of the Hung Gar curriculum and see what happens to it when you bring your feet to shoulders width and see how that figure 8 stance works.

To the untrained eye, indistinguishable from WC.

I have dropped in on WC classes and gone right through all 3 forms along side everybody without missing a beat even though I never really learned them because there was not a single unfamiliar movement or principle in any of them.

It's a shame most of the WC community seems to suck so much ass around here.

[Omar]

More on topic,

Tonight I was hit with a fantastic double meaning regarding the title of this thread.

I have a small group at my gym that I have been training to fight. Nothing to serious, more to give me something live to work with than anything else but the groups been growing and tonight I even had this kid from a military acadamy join in and HE is going to be a great partner. Anyways....

I got this one guy who is learning real fast, nice and relaxed and all, fairly intuitive. He doesn't do well with explanations. So tonight I decide to teach him how to kick. . . I'm trying to teach him to protect his face when he low kicks but whenever I tell him to throw the low kick he keeps throwing one after another like clockwork. Frustrating as hell. I want him to throw a kick, see how I punch him in the face and then think about what happened and try it again. At the very least, take a good look at how I leg block it. He just wont come back from the kick, reset, circle a bit and then throw it. It's like I say "go" and he's on automatic.

So I'm trying to explain it to him and the best I can come up with is, "This is dead. You'r kicking like a robot, like a machine...easy to time. You're not thinking."

Like a machine.

That's the phrase that keeps coming to mind. Like the pendulum on a clock. 1 2 1 2 1 2 . . . No natural erratic rythmn. No looking and seeing and searching and processing. So I think maybe these methods that JFS is on about are great if you want to train a machine. A robot that can be programed to respond automatically. For organic responses though. . . .they suck. For LIVE training as in living organisms, they miss the point.

[WingChun Lawyer]

Definition of Terms:

Training = Protocols or regimens designed to address the "raw elements" of the Human Condition, e.g., Cardio-Vascular work, functional strength work (weight training), etc.

Practice = Skill Set specific work, e.g., refining and smoothing out the foot - hand - eye coordination associated with entering or withdrawing and either striking, grappling, or covering.

As a general rule, practice and training should be kept separate with the addition that practice should mostly be engaged in when physically and mentally fresh. As practice is, according to the definition above, directly involved in the honing of specific skills, weapons or tools, practicing only when fresh insures that the neurological pathways (body knowledge) associated with a specific skill will be the most advantageous when fully grooved.

Perfect practice makes perfect ... practice in of itself just makes sweat.

Mindlessly engaging in rote physical activity will not produce the desired outcome.

Very interesting thread, and I must say I have been having thoughts similar to this subject lately.

As an employed professional who practices martial arts twice or thrice a week, I have bad days and good days. Sometimes I have an argument with my girlfriend, sometimes things go wrong at the office, and sometimes the opposite is true.

I can see the difference in the gym. My psychological/emotional state is directly related to my performance, either in sparring or in regular practice (padwork, moves done in the air, etc). In fact, when my head is fucked up, the only thing I can do right are the exercises, such as push ups, and rope.

As a matter of fact, when I am stressed out or just plain sad (I have feelings, **** you) I get beaten like a dog at sparring. When I am in a good mood I can usually lay the smackdown.

Correct me if I am wrong John, but I believe you are referring to the psychological/mental side of martial arts when you criticize training machines, right? I mean, those machines will usually set your brain into automatic mode, so you will turn off your braincells and start thinking about that girl´s ass.

I must say I tend to agree, but some of those exercises are necessary, at least on the beginning. For instance, my coach will make all beginners train punches, kicks, dodges and blocks in the air and in pads for months in order to get something useful for use in a sparring match: so people will usually just practice stuff without sparring for a couple of months before getting in the ring.

Now, I agree that such a training method will yield less benefits the more experienced you are, but I believe I must draw the line at padwork. In my opinion, padwork is interesting at all levels of skill for the following reasons:

1) Your partner can move. This is important. This means this exercise can vary a lot, and can teach you new moves or applications.

2) Because this exercise can vary a lot, it is easier to use your imagination, it is easier to stay focused on what you are doing.

Now, I understand a pad does not give the same feedback as a human body, but we must work with what we got. Sparring all the time would be impossible, at least if we are talking about hard sparring (and light sparring is quite distant from the realities of a brawl, I believe).

In any event, boxing gloves also give the wrong feeback when compared to bareknuckle, and people still spar with them for safety reasons - it allows you to spar more often, with hard contact, while hitting the face. I believe the advantages of boxing gloves are greater than the drawbacks: I also believe the same can be said of padwork.

[JFS USA]

This is a drum I have been thumping formany years now.

We need to recruit a few more drummers and then form our own Marching Band.

[JFS USA]

That's the phrase that keeps coming to mind. Like the pendulum on a clock. 1 2 1 2 1 2 . . . No natural erratic rythmn. No looking and seeing and searching and processing. So I think maybe these methods that JFS is on about are great if you want to train a machine. A robot that can be programed to respond automatically. For organic responses though. . . .they suck. For LIVE training as in living organisms, they miss the point.

Right on point. The body becomes its function.

[JFS USA]

Correct me if I am wrong John, but I believe you are referring to the psychological/mental side of martial arts when you criticize training machines, right?

Yes & No ... true Zen answer. I think Human Beings are authentically holistic in nature and it's not really possible to isolate or section off some part from the whole.

Yes, I see much wrong with using machines or devices present in the mental side of the house and I also see much wrong with such an approach on the physical side of the house as well.

All response based movements and all movements from the moment of impact forward are in fact false physical presentations when employing machines or devices.

From a pure physical perspective "we" aren't like machines ... we don't act like training devices ... we don't respond like machines or devices.

Bad enough when a person mistakes a map for the territory ... terrible when they insist on attempting to lay a map directly onto an area completely different than the map.

[Torakaka]

Sure, it conditions your shoulders to roll in planes and paths that you NEVER use in boxing. All for show ... nothing for go.



It doesn't. Even your "stance" when hitting the speed bag is all wrong for the target activity.



Sure, you become proficient at keying off of a visual cue that looks exactly like a speed bag. Fight many of those do you?



Sure, cardio benefit as it applies to skipping rope, arm and shoulder conditioning as it applies to skipping rope, and light on your feet ... when skipping rope.

I thought you were into MA ... not rope skipping or fighting against elevated platform anchored small bags?

"Sure, you become proficient at keying off of a visual cue that looks exactly like a speed bag. Fight many of those do you?"

It's not a visual cue. You can hardly SEE the speed bag. It's a focus thing. In fact, half the time I speed bag I'm not even looking at the speed bag. I most certainly HAVE noticed a difference in how well I can keep my hands up after continual speed bagging.

"Sure, cardio benefit as it applies to skipping rope, arm and shoulder conditioning as it applies to skipping rope, and light on your feet ... when skipping rope."

It most certainly applies to boxing aswell. My calf strength from skipping rope has made it tremendously easier to stay off my heels and stay in motion throughout a match. It's still working the same muscles in basically the same way.

"I thought you were into MA ... not rope skipping or fighting against elevated platform anchored small bags?"

Whoops, wrong thread, I'll move my derail to the machines thread.

[JFS USA]

It's not a visual cue. You can hardly SEE the speed bag. It's a focus thing. In fact, half the time I speed bag I'm not even looking at the speed bag.

Oh ... I see ... you are learning to fight blind ... or in the alternative you are learning to have "focus" without really "seeing" the object ... just mentally being focused ... on something you say you don't even "really" see ... gotcha.

I most certainly HAVE noticed a difference in how well I can keep my hands up after continual speed bagging.

Cool ... you hold your hands up like that when we spar and I'll break your ribs for you with one shot ... promise.

So, you note some unquantified "improvement" with regard to holding your hands up, correct? Ever consider how much improvement you would experience if you weren't such a dumbshit and acquired this very basic skill from the get go?

Excuse me, but I don't need a little bag to entice me to keep my hands up. Unlike that uber **** you do ... I do authentic TCMA and from jump street it was heavy contact, bare handed ... getting clocked meant "you" fucked up ... not your sparring partner.

It most certainly applies to boxing aswell. My calf strength from skipping rope has made it tremendously easier to stay off my heels and stay in motion throughout a match.

You are going to be fun to kick the **** out of ... Missy Skippy.

It's still working the same muscles in basically the same way.

Who the **** told you that LIE? Watch some video tape of a skilled boxer in the ring and then watch some video tape of YOU playing Skippy Missy. Your lower body configuration when skipping rope is not even close to how you present in the ring. The angles of force both in issuing and receiving rapid force loads as experienced by your calf muscles are entirely different.

Hold your hands mostly down by your sides and twirl your wrists while in the ring do you? You watch some video and then post back on how boxing footwork in the real setting looked so very much like skipping rope ... NOT.

You can just give it up now Kidspatula ... no matter where you are I have all ready been there and left.

I've done all the Sacred Cows bullshit, rocked the speed bag not only with my hands but my elbows as well, made the heavy bag sing, skipped rope with all the tricks and switches ... been there ... done that ... done it all and did it long before you were even born.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything Kidspatula. It's your life ... live it as you choose as that is unquestionably your right.

Funny isn't it, Kid? How you MMA douche bags all diss TCMA & CMA for being "blind followers" of bullshit ... yet you will fall on your sword rather than part with your own Sacred Cows.

What's the word for that? Ah, yes ... HYPOCRITE. Maybe you should carry the message back to your MMA peeps with the message being "STFU, we are just as screwed up as those we diss." Work on it Kid and then get back to me.