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  1. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 9:37pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jitsuman
    Small penis ^^^?
    Not at all what your Mommy said.

    Ignore list for you asshole ... it's a great function and makes you nothing more than a avatar ... suits you well.

    Way cool ... jismmuncher just became a line with his avatar and nothing more. :icon_chee
    Last edited by JFS USA; 11/27/2005 9:41pm at .
  2. Torakaka is offline
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    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 9:49pm

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     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    I wouldn't try to argue that a bag was better than or even "as good as" a person but the bag is available 100% of the time. It never has a date and is never too tired from work. It never complains and never tells me that BJJ is better than CMA.

    Simple annoying unavoidable fact for me: I do most of my training alone.

    Not all of it and not by choice. I meet with my teacher and get the hands on and I round up people at the gym to play with but the lions share of my practice is what I do in private. A bag seems like a really good tool to me and I try to make the most of it when one is available.
    This is definitely my thought on the subject. You can't ALWAYS spar or ALWAYS have a training partner.

    Is it the use of the bag for perfecting technique and it's use as a learning tool you don't agree with? I would agree that it's use as a learning tool is pretty limited, but I see it as more of a conditioning and muscle memory thing anyway.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  3. Multitask is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 10:21pm


     Style: Hapkido & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting stuff so far...too bad it has gotten off track a bit. I'm curious about the diminishing returns one receives from bag work, etc. I'm a newb, as I've only been training any form of martial arts for a little over 2 years now. The first year was essentially used learning proper mechanics and positioning for various punches, kicks, blocks, etc. Sparring was limited, for several reasons, but contact was light with all of my opponents except blackbelts. The last year has seen an increase in sparring and contact levels, but hard contact is still reserved for only those times when I line up with a blackbelt. These sorts of occasions happen fairly rarely, though opportunities should increase in the coming months, as we have a couple of belts coming back from other activities. Obviously, for me, bag work would seem to still be beneficial, as I feel that my mechanics still need refinement and programming, but five years from now the bag will be of little use? I would think the sort of training Omar is talking about, which is what I strive to do when hitting the bag, would be beneficial to even the most experienced martial artist.

    If a live sparring partner is not available, is there no other way to effectively practice?

    Too bad you're not local JFS. Would love to train under the sorts of circumstances you describe.
  4. Xiangfei is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 7:01am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Well, let's take a look at it from a purely rational perspective.

    Correct positioning against what? In what reasonable manner does a fixed in space wood arm represent a dynamically extending or retracting Human limb? Of what value is a fixed limb that presents none of the visual cues attending a "live" limb? What can possibly transfer to the target activity ... engaging a live limb, by way of sensory feedback ... feel when contacting wood with no joints whatsoever?

    How does the fixed balance point of a wooden structure (the dummy body) in any fashion represent the feel upon contact with a Human limb? Keep in mind that when "static" the Human Form has a balance point roughly in plane with the Earth and at about the level of the navel. When moving the Human Form's balance point shifts to about mid-chest level and in plane with the Earth.

    Arm conditioning? Why not 3 Star Block and get not only the correct sensory feedback upon contact, but also get exposure to making contact with something that is moving through space? Your partner is also experiencing contact conditioning. If it's primarily a matter of contact conditioning then why not use a tree or telephone pole?

    I agree. I really believe over-emphasis on perfect positioning isn't really a good idea - a slighty off-course, but strong tan sau, say, is better than a perfect one but done too softly to be of any use. "Correct positioning against what?" - really just to ensure you're not flinging your arms out too wide or too narrow or whatnot. The only time I used a dummy, I had - I'm gonna assume you know a little WC, if not, just go with it - to do a basic bong sau/change around the arm/elbow strike. I thought 'easy'. But my hand was off at a silly angle and when I did the elbow strike, I cracked my knuckles on the arms. In reality, that'd have probably just meant I'd have lost the elbow strike due to getting my hand tangled up in the opponents limbs - or maybe not, but best to tighten up that elbow and get the hand out of the way just to be sure, right?

    Any uses bar tightening up and correcting positions - but by no means creating a set of bizarre fixed and unchanging ones - I wouldn't necessarily agree with, but then, I'm not yet a dummy student. Those who are go on about it improving the stepping because of the manner you step around it (so would chalk lines on the floor) and, aye, conditioning, which you can do against anything. So they'd be small added bonuses of correction of position.

    For example, chi sau, right? Supposed to go in a straight line, as are all techniques. I saw this 'sifu' in Hong Kong whose techniques and chi sau all fluttered around himself in huge wushu-like circles. Because of his inane flapping, he was useless and got hit lots. Either he doesn't use a dummy or doesn't use one correctly. If he did, he'd be used to his techniques going forward towards the opponents centre, as best as can be done (it is never, ever going to be perfect. I loathe the term "45 degree stepping" because it never is, for instance, and people spend too much time trying to get a perfect 45 degree step than on getting out of the damn way).

    But yes, you could fix your techniques, condition your arms and sort out wonky footwork on your own or by various other methods. A dummy just does all in one. Like a kitchen gadget.
  5. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 7:16am

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     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    This is definitely my thought on the subject. You can't ALWAYS spar or ALWAYS have a training partner.
    Shadow box in a mirror.

    Much as I prize work ethic ... taken to an extreme it quickly becomes counter-productive. Quality over quantity. If you seek Gold acquiring vast amounts of **** will never convert to Gold no matter how much **** you have.

    Difficult as it may be to accept, the vast majority of peeps make far too difficult a thing out of MA. Having walked this Path for over 4 decades my hindsight is a perfect 20/20. As always ... do as you Will.

    I would agree that it's use as a learning tool is pretty limited, but I see it as more of a conditioning and muscle memory thing anyway.
    Wrong sensory feedback for faciliating "conditioning" that transfers. Sometimes
    "close" is not close enough and with a bag you don't get anything like the return of force associated with striking a Human. The attending stabilizers adaptation will be all wrong.

    Wrong visual cues, wrong force load feedback & wrong reaction on impact which runs back into wrong visual cues.

    Runs a bit counter-intuitive and certainly runs against "conventional Wisdom" but that is the nature of progress. **** can the "old way" for that which is known to be better. From horse & buggy to automobile.
  6. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 7:31am

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     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JFS, while I understand you cannot fully divorce the brain's role from the body's work, are your principle arguements for specificty from a "building incorrect muscle memory" or a "cueing off of the wrong inputs" perspective?
  7. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 7:36am

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     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiangfei
    I agree. I really believe over-emphasis on perfect positioning isn't really a good idea - a slighty off-course, but strong tan sau, say, is better than a perfect one but done too softly to be of any use. "Correct positioning against what?" - really just to ensure you're not flinging your arms out too wide or too narrow or whatnot. The only time I used a dummy, I had - I'm gonna assume you know a little WC, if not, just go with it
    In many ways, WC plays much like small frame H'ung Ga.

    - to do a basic bong sau/change around the arm/elbow strike. I thought 'easy'. But my hand was off at a silly angle and when I did the elbow strike, I cracked my knuckles on the arms. In reality, that'd have probably just meant I'd have lost the elbow strike due to getting my hand tangled up in the opponents limbs - or maybe not, but best to tighten up that elbow and get the hand out of the way just to be sure, right?
    You equate the reactive positioning post bong sau contacting a fixed plane wooden arm with how your bridge would react - present post contacting a live limb? Based on what possible rationale? Do you actually think that post impact your opponent is going to just stand there with his limb froze in space? Do you actually think that post impact your opponent is going to cease all bodily movement? Do you actually think the openings you "see" and/or "feel" on a wooden dummy are going to present that way when encountering a living Human Being?

    Any uses bar tightening up and correcting positions - but by no means creating a set of bizarre fixed and unchanging ones - I wouldn't necessarily agree with, but then, I'm not yet a dummy student.
    The body becomes its function. You entrain pathways of movement based on a fatally flawed model and that's what your body becomes.

    Those who are go on about it improving the stepping because of the manner you step around it (so would chalk lines on the floor) and, aye, conditioning, which you can do against anything. So they'd be small added bonuses of correction of position.
    Sure, your stepping would improve ... against a fixed object or fixed lines on the floor. I've been in a few fights in my life and I don't ever recall anyone being cemented to the ground.

    For example, chi sau, right? Supposed to go in a straight line, as are all techniques. I saw this 'sifu' in Hong Kong whose techniques and chi sau all fluttered around himself in huge wushu-like circles. Because of his inane flapping, he was useless and got hit lots. Either he doesn't use a dummy or doesn't use one correctly.
    Well, it has been repeatedly pointed out that the vast majority of WC'ers are in fact dummies so I guess you are right.

    If he did, he'd be used to his techniques going forward towards the opponents centre, as best as can be done (it is never, ever going to be perfect. I loathe the term "45 degree stepping" because it never is, for instance, and people spend too much time trying to get a perfect 45 degree step than on getting out of the damn way).
    You "groove" the "perfect World" model knowing full well that in the heat of the moment it will most likely not manifest. The rationale of perfect World practice is to have enough "right" or "correct" to make it work under adverse conditions.

    But yes, you could fix your techniques, condition your arms and sort out wonky footwork on your own or by various other methods. A dummy just does all in one. Like a kitchen gadget.
    No, a dummy does not "fix" anything beyond making incorrect neurological pathways "fixed" ... as in installed ... in your body. "All" the sensory feedback cues and visual cues are WRONG.

    I often times wonder why peeps have such a difficult time accepting a simple truism that applies to we mere mortal MA'ers, namely:

    You cannot create something living from something dead.
  8. Xiangfei is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 7:45am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK. I do see the point. I never said the opponent would not move, that's obvious. Would you say that hazy techniques that fly all over and are out of position are OK, because they'll probably adapt to the opponent's own movements anyway (ie: my lousy elbow strike with the wonky hand would be alright in reality because he'd probably not react to the hand, or I'd be unlikely to get it really tangled).

    Or, would you argue it's better to have at least somewhat correct positioning learned so that in reality, when it's all flailing about, there's at least a semblance of correct, therefore more effective, position?
  9. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 7:46am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by locu5
    JFS, while I understand you cannot fully divorce the brain's role from the body's work, are your principle arguements for specificty from a "building incorrect muscle memory" or a "cueing off of the wrong inputs" perspective?
    Both. The Human Condition is authentically "holistic" in nature. It's really not possible to "section" us off into completely isolated elements.

    Even modern Western Medicine accepts this as fact. As an example, someone who is in unresolved physical pain for 6 months or more has a high probability of suffering from Depressive Syndrome.

    If you cue off of incorrect keys then the associated response pattern is corrupted as well. If you cue off of correct sensory input but repeatedly respond incorrectly then you carry that defect forward.
  10. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 7:54am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiangfei
    OK. I do see the point. I never said the opponent would not move, that's obvious. Would you say that hazy techniques that fly all over and are out of position are OK, because they'll probably adapt to the opponent's own movements anyway (ie: my lousy elbow strike with the wonky hand would be alright in reality because he'd probably not react to the hand, or I'd be unlikely to get it really tangled).

    Or, would you argue it's better to have at least somewhat correct positioning learned so that in reality, when it's all flailing about, there's at least a semblance of correct, therefore more effective, position?
    I've all ready addressed this issue and I'll restate it this one time. Perfect practice makes perfect ... practice in of itself just makes sweat.

    We always want to entrain "perfect World" models. In the heat of the moment, when all Hell is breaking loose, that is our best course of action for insuring some measure of the "correct" or "proper" way will be made manifest.
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