The Fallacy of Training Machines

[Jitsuman]

So fucking WHAT? A group of iron junkies preach whatever and you buy it as Gospel? Yeah, you're right, why bother with state of the art scientific information when the guys at the local Gold's Gym have all the answers :cachas:


Okay, you are splitting hairs here. How a bone mends is much different than how soft tissues repair. Dude, the most that can honestly be said is that if you sufficiently stress a muscle or muscle group it will recover to a level above the pre-morbid or "pre-injury" level ... generally.

This quickly flatlines in response to genetics. The majority of peeps could use Arnold's exact work-outs and never even coming close to matching him. Very, very few peeps will ever lift any thing like the poundages hoisted by World Class Power Lifters or Olympic Lifters. Let's leave this side show **** out of the thread as it is complicated enough as is.



Christ Dude most High School and many College Coaches are bullshit blatant.



Since you don't think I know anything get off the thread. :new_astha



So says you ... I'm still waiting for you post up a point to debate ... you're simply being argumentative and have -0- backing you up :biblethum

1. I dont think it's gospel, I just think it worked. it seems to work for a lot of people. If you have evidence of it not working, or something working better, post it. But asking people to take your word on it, without evidence, becasue you are you? c'mon now.

2. From what I understand (which I admit is not much) when you break a bone as a kid or in the prime of your life, it grows back slightly thicker. I've been told this by doctors at least, maybe they're right, or wrong, I dont know. Post what ever evidence you have.

3. You started the thread, and yes, I am getting off track, I'll let you continue. but please, god damn it, back your **** up with evidence, and stop bitching at people who disagree when you have proven nothing.

4. What backing have you shown, again? :confused1

5. what are you talking about? You dont think cardio makes a difference in RUNNING? I'm the "brain doner"? heh.

[JFS USA]

But what about working the heavy bag with those rythmns in mind. Short explosive burst followed by circling and probing followed by more short periods of high intensity. Go back and forth between looking for rythmn, power, ryythmn that supports power, moving in close and nearly wrestling with the bag and moving back out again to launch long range shots. ie. in the absence of a live training partner, use your imagination as much as possible with the bag to keep the live partner in mind.

You're better than that, Omar. Flesh out the equation a bit. Factor in your nervous system being repeatedly taxed from being struck. Unless you are only going to fight a Charter Member of the Sisters of Mercy you are going to get tagged.

Even at that, a heavy bag will in no way give you anything like the return of force feedback associated with striking a Human. How you deal with the disruptive influences of force production and force absorbtion dictates how quickly you will pass through the transition phase and that determines "flow state" in combat.

That's why I think just going untill you are about 90% exhausted is best.

Too extreme, Omar ... back it down to about 75% and you are Golden.

[Omar]

Cept we're talking about MA training here not powerlifting. Not that one can't benifit from the other but if you think MA training is as simple as just being the strongest/most muscular/etc. . . .

And I was being slightly sarchastic. Did you realy think I thought that you thought you were supposed to rib the pectorals clean of your chest in order to build them up? Where do you draw the line though? How much fatigue? How far are you willing to compromise technique in order to fatigue yourself? How do you lay down those so called neural pathways if you train yourself into the ground each time?

as far as intensity vs. consitency? From what I understand consistency is better for "toning", and intensity is better for muscle mass/power gain.

How am I supposed to relate that to fighting? I'm not trying to build muscle with my MA training. That's what weight training is for. I am trying to build MA skills with my MA training.

I can see now why JFS was bugging about how many people can't tell the difference between "training" and "practice". I even highlighted the terms in your own post as you conflated the terms and you still didn't seem to notice.

[Jitsuman]

WHo defines the difference between "training" and "practice" again? a poster on an internet message board with no authority to do so, ok.

Maybe I, differ on my use of those words?

Maybe other people as well?

as far as building and toning muscle in relation to MA's, there are many things I could say, but if I need to, than I wont bother.

[JFS USA]

1. I dont think it's gospel, I just think it worked. it seems to work for a lot of people. If you have evidence of it not working, or something working better, post it. But asking people to take your word on it, without evidence, becasue you are you? c'mon now.

At the conclusion of this thread I am going to post up URLs to reference material substantiating what I'm posting. Quit being an asshole, I claim none of what I'm posting as "my" original thinking ... I'm not that bright and I'm not privy to the funding.

I am intelligent enough to know where to seek solid information and what to look for. For a couple of years I was the lab rat of choice for a Human Performance Lab. I've been around the block more than a couple of times.

If you don't value what I'm posting then go away ... there's no rule compelling you to read what I write.

2. From what I understand (which I admit is not much) when you break a bone as a kid or in the prime of your life, it grows back slightly thicker. I've been told this by doctors at least, maybe they're right, or wrong, I dont know. Post what ever evidence you have.

It is 100% accurate. I saw evidence of this by way of micro-fractures produced by Iron Palm training. Even the X-ray Tech was able to determine on first sight of the films which hand I had put IP into.

3. You started the thread, and yes, I am getting off track, I'll let you continue.

I'll just put you into the "ignore" function and you can play with yourself all day long for all I care. You will "let me" ... what a joke.

but please, god damn it, back your **** up with evidence, and stop bitching at people who disagree when you have proven nothing.

I'll post up the URLs at the end. You can always just come see me and put your hands where your mouth is if you want immediate proof.

You dont think cardio makes a difference in RUNNING? I'm the "brain doner"? heh.

Not at all what I posted ... and by the way Whiz Kid ... it's "donor."

[Jitsuman]

I'm sure your evidence will be utterly fucking amazing. i'm sure everyone will go "wow that's great"

no, in reality I dont think you'll end up proving anything at all.

the only point you've made so far is that I've spelled donor wrong, you did get me there.

[Omar]

You're better than that, Omar. Flesh out the equation a bit. Factor in your nervous system being repeatedly taxed from being struck. Unless you are only going to fight a Charter Member of the Sisters of Mercy you are going to get tagged.

Even at that, a heavy bag will in no way give you anything like the return of force feedback associated with striking a Human. How you deal with the disruptive influences of force production and force absorbtion dictates how quickly you will pass through the transition phase and that determines "flow state" in combat.

I wouldn't try to argue that a bag was better than or even "as good as" a person but the bag is available 100% of the time. It never has a date and is never too tired from work. It never complains and never tells me that BJJ is better than CMA.

Simple annoying unavoidable fact for me: I do most of my training alone.

Not all of it and not by choice. I meet with my teacher and get the hands on and I round up people at the gym to play with but the lions share of my practice is what I do in private. A bag seems like a really good tool to me and I try to make the most of it when one is available.

Too extreme, Omar ... back it down to about 75% and you are Golden.

I'll give it some thought.

I'm still working on getting a handle on the level my teacher wants out of me. 90% seems like a max that I never want to go past but I have been told on occasion to scale it back a bit. Seems pretty subjective to me but I'll experiment with it for a bit.

One the one hand as I am training Bajiquan which tends to be a bit obsessive about power I am always searching for just a little bit more. OTOH, he says any time finish a set, if I have to put my hands on my knees and pant like a 300lb tub o'lard that just climbed the empire state building. . . then I fucked up.

[JFS USA]

WHo defines the difference between "training" and "practice" again?

I do .. someone who has actively engaged in MA for over 4 decades ... more years than you have life. I do ... the one who started this thread in an attempt to share some hard earned insights with those interested in considering something outside the box ... not in playing shithouse little kiddie games, such as you. I do ... the one who have been validated repeatedly by way of the Bullshido litmus test of choice, the Throwdown. I do, Sifu Springer ... come see me if you require additional clarification.

... differ on my use of those words? Maybe other people as well?

Then you and the others are welcome to start your own thread and use terms as you so desire. Here, on this thread, the one I am leading, I have defined terms. Not for the purpose of "power play" ... but in order to proceed as clearly and cleanly as possible. I've repeatedly posted that language is inherently sloppy ... that's a real hurdle to overcome when attempting to discuss things experience based in a written medium.

as far as building and toning muscle in relation to MA's, there are many things I could say, but if I need to, than I wont bother.

No doubt you could say much and NONE of it would be of any real value ... pretty much on par with your offerings on this thread to date ... worthless.

[Jitsuman]

I do .. someone who has actively engaged in MA for over 4 decades ... more years than you have life. I do ... the one who started this thread in an attempt to share some hard earned insights with those interested in considering something outside the box ... not in playing shithouse little kiddie games, such as you. I do ... the one who have been validated repeatedly by way of the Bullshido litmus test of choice, the Throwdown. I do, Sifu Springer ... come see me if you require additional clarification.

Small penis ^^^?

[JFS USA]

I wouldn't try to argue that a bag was better than or even "as good as" a person but the bag is available 100% of the time. It never has a date and is never too tired from work. It never complains and never tells me that BJJ is better than CMA.

Understood and agreed, Omar. Just be aware of the fact that as your skill level comes up the degree of useful transfer from bag to target activity declines.

Seems pretty subjective to me but I'll experiment with it for a bit.

It is very subjective and the difficulty is accepting that the subjective is as valid as the objective in certain settings. Perceived exertional level is such a setting.

One the one hand as I am training Bajiquan which tends to be a bit obsessive about power I am always searching for just a little bit more. OTOH, he says any time finish a set, if I have to put my hands on my knees and pant like a 300lb tub o'lard that just climbed the empire state building. . . then I fucked up.

Very much true ... near maximal power production should not require any thing like near maximal exertion ... it is a matter of proper bio-mechanics ... what some would call "technique."

Keep in mind that "smooth is fast" and the way to your goal regarding power is by way of refinement ... not gritting your teeth and putting ass to it.