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  1. Jitsuman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 8:08pm


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Larson
    I heard the same thing from marine poolees regarding pull ups. "If you work 'til you can't do 'em anymore, your muscles will be built back stronger than ever."

    The result? I improved from 5 to 16 in about two months by coaxing my way up there, and everybody else was stuck doing the same amount they've always done...some even dropped in count.

    Also, during boot, I rolled my ankle several times. It appeared very swollen after being damaged so often.

    That's similar to how bodybuilding works. You damage your muscles by overexertion, and they'll probably look bigger, and you might get stronger...but it's too much work for a little desired result. I could do something else to get power, for example, as opposed to weight lifting. Like power lifting even. :new_spira



    But once you are completely "awake" in the mental aspect, what do you do when your "kill em all" mentality isn't enough to overcome somebody? Just because you want something very bad mentally doesn't mean you'll get it in reality.
    Yes, exactly. it's pretty much a fact that when you rip muscle tissue, it grows back stronger. While martial arts isn't bodybuilding, in many ways, the two are indeed linked. If you throw side kicks and stop when you start sweating, are your kicks ever going to get better?

    My point about muscle memory, and training when you are mentally drained was more to say "sometimes you need to be able to fight when your brain is off the job."
  2. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 8:15pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vile
    I read the first few posts before clicking that you were using different terms but similar philosophies to what I have seen. I was going to rant, but then I read it again.
    Okay

    I think the main dissimilarity lies in the degree to which much MA training is cardio/endurance based to improve fitness and the TaeBo types who think fitness is the be-all and end-all of fighting.

    I don't see anything wrong with cardio/endurance training, as it ties back into much of what you are saying - the fresher you are when you fight the better.
    "Fresher" is defined how? In order to be "fresh" during a "specific" activity all training must have a high degree of transference to the target activity. Otherwise, you quickly run into a poor trade-off in time/energy expended and useful benefits gained.

    I find peeps that hold themselves out as some sort of authority on combatives repeatedly limiting the real range and scope of "shape" or "conditioning" to be mind boggling.

    Let's chunk it down a bit and look at just one aspect for a moment. Muscular endurance: When we say we are training for muscular endurance what are we really saying? I suggest we are saying that we are training for muscular endurance as it applies to our chosen MA activity and nothing more.

    For good, all around "shape" and "conditioning" a person need only ride a bike, swim, and either power walk or run 3 times a week for 20 minutes in each of the 3 activities all 3 work-outs.

    But that's not really what we are after, is it? So our concerns run a bit more deep, they are more involved. One of the things that peeps typically over look is the primary metabolic pathway accessed for their specific activity. The Human Condition will use different energy paths in direct response to specific demands.

    Beat on a heavy bag ... get into a "rhythm" and just steadily blast away? How similar is that to the ebb and flow of being in the ring? Not very. You will develop muscular endurance ... but it will be restricted to a near steady state exertion level.

    Let's push the envelope a bit and look at the back side of the equation. Your body "burns fuel" and the byproducts need to be cleared from your system in order to function at peak level.

    The lactic acid clearance rates (demands) associated with steadily beating the Hell out of a heavy bag for "X" number of minutes is much different than the demands placed upon the system in actual competition. Where's the transference of "training activity" to "target activity" ... pretty much down the toilet.

    If I am fitter and the movements I use exhaust me less as I have strengthened the muscles involved, then the longer the fight goes on and the greater the dissimilarity in the states of our exhaustion the more likely the I am to kick ass. Thats pretty much what you are saying anyway correct?
    As an Anthropology Professor once told me many years ago ... "It is NOT survival of the "fit" as there are many kinds of "fitness" that bode well for Humans."

    If you are "fitter" defined as more high functioning in your target activity than your opponent ... quite possibly true. If we are speaking in terms of MMA or formal MA Comps then it is somewhat suspect. One need only read the accounts of boxers who were on their last leg so to speak that unloaded one bomb of a shot that took out their opponent to realize there are no absolutes as such. Jersey Joe Walcott had a couple such experiences during his late run at the championship.

    So its more involved with people understanding when they are working the bag for endurance and when they are working the bag for technique. From what I gather you are saying its pointless to completely sacrifice the technique for the endurance whcih is true, however the idea is surely to train to the point where your techniques are executed well even when exhausted.
    It really depends on your definition of "exhausted." Having gone with neither food nor sleep and forced to "shoot - move & communicate" in accordance with stated standards I can honestly say that after about 54 consecutive hours (non-stop) I'm done for. I'm not sloppy ... I'm essentially non-functional.

    I've repeated endless rounds for having sloppy technique - have always been told do it right or not at all. Thats an aspiration that may be beyond most people but its not about the destination, its about the journey. As long as your instructor is good it shouldn't be an issue if you listen to them about your technique.
    I prefer to "coax" the body into more prolonged periods of high functioning while under adverse circumstances. I have found it to be often times far more a matter of limitations - restrictions imposed by the Mind than by the Body. We're like that as a creature ... pretty much geared towards steady state and comfort zone.

    I think you need to be more specific when you refer to drills.
    Actually, I haven't even really addressed "drills" ... it seems others are off on that tangent ... not me.
  3. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 8:21pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jitsuman
    Osiris has a valid point here.

    as far as "training" in the context of "working out" to build muscle, you are supposed to physically exhaust yourself to the point of total muscle failure. That way when you heal, you build yourself back stronger.
    You are referring to what is termed an "inroad" and BTW, there is no generally accepted model of how we become stronger. The precise biological process is still the subject of much debate.

    As another point, what you are citing to has all of NOTHING to do with the topic.
    Just bored and felt like posting something or did you really miss the point?

    Also, martial arts training utilizes concepts of "muscle memory", you're supposed to get hurt, tired, injured (to a degree) to build yourself into a tougher person in the long run.
    Absolute rubbish and your setting MA above other physical skill based activities really shows you are clueless. Why don't you sit back and read a bit before spewing forth idiotic bullshit?

    At least, that is how I see it. I figure that if i always pracitice "fresh", when I'm in a real situation, and beat down and tired, I'll be out of my element.
    And I figure you have NEVER been in a real fight in your life.
  4. Jitsuman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 8:36pm


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    You are referring to what is termed an "inroad" and BTW, there is no generally accepted model of how we become stronger. The precise biological process is still the subject of much debate.

    As another point, what you are citing to has all of NOTHING to do with the topic.
    Just bored and felt like posting something or did you really miss the point?



    Absolute rubbish and your setting MA above other physical skill based activities really shows you are clueless. Why don't you sit back and read a bit before spewing forth idiotic bullshit?



    And I figure you have NEVER been in a real fight in your life.
    1. I dont know about "generally accepted" however at every weight training gym I've ever been to this basic concept was stressed "rip it, it grows back stronger" The human body works under similar confines. When a bone breaks, it tends to grown back stronger. This is fact, or at least that's what my Doctor told me when i broke my ankle.


    2. no, I'm not putting MA above anything. Most sports make the same claim. In high school basketball fore instance, coach used to work us to the point of exhaustion, telling us we'd thank him when we started winning. I found that, for instance, when coach made us run the court over and over in practice, when actual game time came, I never got all that tired running the floor. this is bullshit? Because you say so? Sorry, maybe you're the one full of ****.

    3. you figured wrong, I've been in 2 very serous fights in my adult life, one almost got me killed. Maybe before making clueless asssumptions you should just ASK. But feel free to claim that no one has any actual fighting experience but you. I know you think youre hot ****, but in reality you're not. You points are just as open to debate an anyone elses.

    PS: As a general rule, practice and training should be kept separate with the addition that practice should mostly be engaged in when physically and mentally fresh. As practice is, according to the definition above, directly involved in the honing of specific skills, weapons or tools, practicing only when fresh insures that the neurological pathways (body knowledge) associated with a specific skill will be the most advantageous when fully grooved.

    This is from your first post. It is what I, osiris, and a few other have been responding to. if anyone is confusing the point, it is you.
    Last edited by Jitsuman; 11/27/2005 8:42pm at .
  5. Dusty Larson is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 8:46pm


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jitsuman
    In high school basketball fore instance, coach used to work us to the point of exhaustion, telling us we'd thank him when we started winning. I found that, for instance, when coach made us run the court over and over in practice, when actual game time came, I never got all that tired running the floor. this is bullshit? Because you say so? Sorry, maybe you're the one full of ****.
    I feel I should respond to this.

    There are a few reasons for the success of "running up and down the court."

    1.) Running up and down the court 'til you were exhausted may have prepared you for the exhaustion you would face in actual game time...so when you were actually playing and winning, you wouldn't fail because your mind would be telling you that you've been through worse. Mental toughness as John referred to earlier.

    Worked just as I expected, when we went through forced hikes in combat training school. All of us were pretending to be completely happy and motivated, and stomping at the ground angrily with each step because we all knew, that if we wanted to get this misery overwith as quickly as possible, we'd have to tear at the activity as if it were easy...and it was easy, if you didn't mind being exhausted and thirsty. Some guys were physical studs with buttloads of stamina, some were couch potatoes only a few months ago. Didn't matter, we all got through it because of the instructors forcing us from our comfort zones.

    2.) In actual basketball, you have to run up and down the court...a lot...and you did just that. You may have very well prepared your body for doing the intended activity, by doing exactly that activity. We're not talking about the same thing when it comes to "kicking a heavy pad" versus "kicking a Human in the solar plexus." There is some transfer, but the best and most efficient way to get better at something...is to actually do it.

    The point isn't whether somebody should practice stamina based fitness to win compared to a couch potato, the point is "what's the best way to get better at this activity?"
  6. Jitsuman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 8:51pm


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with most of your post. However how do you know it is "mental toughness" and not "cardiovascular endurance" You really dont. It's impossible to tell in most cases. Though I should add that all the mental toughness in the world will not get a 400 pound man with no cardi to run a 7 minute mile.

    Also I am aware that this point has nothing to do with the transfer of kicking pads/bag/training machines and the transfer of that skill set to actual combat, kicking a person. But the thread got side tracked on several occasions and I made it clear (I think) what points i am responding to.
  7. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 8:51pm

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     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Okay


    Beat on a heavy bag ... get into a "rhythm" and just steadily blast away? How similar is that to the ebb and flow of being in the ring? Not very. You will develop muscular endurance ... but it will be restricted to a near steady state exertion level.
    But what about working the heavy bag with those rythmns in mind. Short explosive burst followed by circling and probing followed by more short periods of high intensity. Go back and forth between looking for rythmn, power, ryythmn that supports power, moving in close and nearly wrestling with the bag and moving back out again to launch long range shots. ie. in the absence of a live training partner, use your imagination as much as possible with the bag to keep the live partner in mind.

    I prefer to "coax" the body into more prolonged periods of high functioning while under adverse circumstances.
    That's why I think just going untill you are about 90% exhausted is best. Keeping in mind:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jitsuman
    1. I dont know about "generally accepted" however at every weight training gym I've ever been to this basic concept was stressed "rip it, it grows back stronger" .
    Not if you actually literally rip it up. When a muscle actually strains or if even minor damage is done to a ligament you don't get stronger. You get a 6th sense about when it is going to rain. Just stressing a muscle or tendon beyond it's comfort zone will make it adapt.

    I don't know the facts on the cost to benifit graph but it seemslike at the low end, if you hardly work at all you will hardly get results. The more you stress the bones/muscle/mental capacity the more results you get. Even a little bit more effort produces a lot more results at first but there is a limit somewhere. If you cross that limit, something breaks and you are stuck with an injury that may never heal back as good as before. You also get diminishing returns on your effort as you get closer to that point of injury. That's why I think what you really want even more than intensity is consistency. Day after day, year after year of constant hard practice and training but the intensity you want has a limit.
    Last edited by Omar; 11/27/2005 8:57pm at .
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  8. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 8:52pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jitsuman
    1. I dont know about "generally accepted" however at every weight training gym I've ever been to this basic concept was stressed "rip it, it grows back stronger"
    So fucking WHAT? A group of iron junkies preach whatever and you buy it as Gospel? Yeah, you're right, why bother with state of the art scientific information when the guys at the local Gold's Gym have all the answers :cachas:

    The human body works under similar confines. When a bone breaks, it tends to grown back stronger. This is fact, or at least that's what my Doctor told me when i broke my ankle.
    Okay, you are splitting hairs here. How a bone mends is much different than how soft tissues repair. Dude, the most that can honestly be said is that if you sufficiently stress a muscle or muscle group it will recover to a level above the pre-morbid or "pre-injury" level ... generally.

    This quickly flatlines in response to genetics. The majority of peeps could use Arnold's exact work-outs and never even coming close to matching him. Very, very few peeps will ever lift any thing like the poundages hoisted by World Class Power Lifters or Olympic Lifters. Let's leave this side show **** out of the thread as it is complicated enough as is.

    2. no, I'm not putting MA above anything. Most sports make the same claim. In high school basketball fore instance, coach used to work us to the point of exhaustion, telling us we'd thank him when we started winning. I found that, for instance, when coach made us run the court over and over in practice, when actual game time came, I never got all that tired running the floor.
    Christ Dude most High School and many College Coaches are bullshit blatant.

    this is bullshit? Because you say so? Sorry, maybe you're the one full of ****.
    Since you don't think I know anything get off the thread. :new_astha

    3. you figured wrong, I've been in 2 very serous fights in my adult life, one almost got me killed. Maybe before making clueless asssumptions you should just ASK. But feel free to claim that no one has any actual fighting experience but you. I know you think youre hot ****, but in reality you're not. You points are just as open to debate an anyone elses.
    So says you ... I'm still waiting for you post up a point to debate ... you're simply being argumentative and have -0- backing you up :biblethum
  9. Jitsuman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 8:59pm


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar


    Not if you actually literally rip it up. When a muscle actually strains or if even minor damage is done to a ligament you don't get stronger. You get a 6th sense about when it is going to rain. Just stressing a muscle or tendon beyond it's comfort zone will make it adapt.

    I don't know the facts on the cost to benifit graph but it seemslike at the low end, if you hardly work at all you will hardly get results. The more you stress the bones/muscle/mental capacity the more results you get. Even a little bit more effort produces a lot more results at first but there is a limit somewhere. If you cross that limit, something breaks and you are stuck with an injury that may never heal back as good as before. You also get diminishing returns on your effort as you get closer to that point of injury. That's why I think what you really want even more than intensity is consistency. Day after day, year after year of constant hard practice and training but the intensity you want has a limit.
    oh I wasn't talking about doing anything crazy, tearing ligaments off the bone or anything like that. It's just that from what I understand the purpose of weight training is to reach what they call "muscle fatigue" which is when your muscles become saturated with some sort of alcohol by product as the result of microscopic rips in muscle fiber. I dont know the exact science that goes into it at all, not claiming to. If you can enlighten me on it that would be great. From what personal trainers I know say (all of which have lots of huge muscles) it seems there must be some truth in it.

    as far as intensity vs. consitency? From what I understand consistency is better for "toning", and intensity is better for muscle mass/power gain.
  10. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 9:00pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jitsuman
    I agree with most of your post. However how do you know it is "mental toughness" and not "cardiovascular endurance" You really dont.
    Once again, brain donor, you are 100% WRONG. Blood panels can reveal exactly what level of cardio-vasc. endurance was/is possible by way of chemical analysis. As blood is the primary carrier medium, be it oxygen exchange or metabolic energy, it's pretty damned accurate.

    Though I should add that all the mental toughness in the world will not get a 400 pound man with no cardi to run a 7 minute mile.
    Utter rubbish. You are attempting to substitute performance standards for overall functioning ability.

    Also I am aware that this point has nothing to do with the transfer of kicking pads/bag/training machines and the transfer of that skill set to actual combat, kicking a person. But the thread got side tracked on several occasions and I made it clear (I think) what points i am responding to.
    Yes it did, by idiots such as yourself. BTW, shitrat, this is MY thread and as you have clearly demonstrated you don't know **** from shinola about this matter just STFU.
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