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  1. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 10:47am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How do you develop the following with "HUD" ?

    Speed
    Impact force
    Reaction time
    Hand eye coordination
    Penetrative force
    Muscular Endurance
    Cadrivascular endurance
    Broken rythm

    To name just a few things.
  2. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 11:52am

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Richards
    One common problem early on, is when folks try to force specific techniques or 'style rules' into it. My answer to them is to let the HUD 'tell' you what to do rather than try to make the HUD fit a style. The map has its own logic, so it 'suggests' what are workable motions. Refinement in techinque comes from this, as The HUD is about natural human form modeling, not about progressively refined abstractions of it.
    I find this very interesting as it relates to the time honored tradition of teaching "fundamentals".

    I believe there is some debate among elite coaches and trainers regarding the practice of teaching established fundamentals, rather than letting the athlete find his own way to the same end.

    It sounds like you would advocate the latter approach. Is this correct?
  3. Steve Richards is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 12:58pm

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     Style: Hap-Gar Si-Ji-Hao

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    How do you develop the following with "HUD" ?

    Speed
    Impact force
    Reaction time
    Hand eye coordination
    Penetrative force
    Muscular Endurance
    Cadrivascular endurance
    Broken rythm

    To name just a few things.
    The eye-hand coordination and reaction time should be obvious. The broken rythm is incorporated as it has no 'rythm' as such, it isn't a TOTE exchange of stuctures - it breaks structure up. Its not a boxing program in any way, its a deconstruction program. Nothing breaks rythm like deconstructing contact. Impact and penetrative force come from application. My people hit each other thru the body map points with as much force as they can reasonably withstand, same way any contact training does.

    Muscular and cardiovascular endurance in any physiological activity come by either the doing of the activity or, according to some, the doing of other things related to the activity - and thats the subject of a specificity debate - as JFS was developing here earlier.

    Steve.
  4. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 1:02pm

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     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Richards
    The eye-hand coordination and reaction time should be obvious. The broken rythm is incorporated as it has no 'rythm' as such, it isn't a TOTE exchange of stuctures - it breaks structure up. Its not a boxing program in any way, its a deconstruction program. Nothing breaks rythm like deconstructing contact. Impact and penetrative force come from application. My people hit each other thru the body map points with as much force as they can reasonably withstand, same way any contact training does.

    Muscular and cardiovascular endurance in any physiological activity come by either the doing of the activity or, according to some, the doing of other things related to the activity - and thats the subject of a specificity debate - as JFS was developing here earlier.

    Steve.

    See, this is where you and I part ways, sort o speaking.
    I can state SPECIFICS to all the above in regards to equipment work, such as Focus mitts, pad wrok and the HB.

    These items develop all those skills.

    What I wanna know is, HOW can you develop them WITHOUT equipment?

    Sparring can only do so much.
  5. Steve Richards is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 1:08pm

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     Style: Hap-Gar Si-Ji-Hao

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    I find this very interesting as it relates to the time honored tradition of teaching "fundamentals".

    I believe there is some debate among elite coaches and trainers regarding the practice of teaching established fundamentals, rather than letting the athlete find his own way to the same end.

    It sounds like you would advocate the latter approach. Is this correct?
    Thanks, I do, but only on empirical grounds. I don't hold that is necessarily the way for anyone else. An example I can give, involves my JKD/Shooto/Savate/Muay-Thai friend Chris Arnold from Palm Springs Ca - he won't mind me mentioning his name. When Chris started his conversion onto HUD modeling, he found it hard at first not to drill fundamental techniques. My suggestion was that he didn't need more of that - he had enough, what he needed to do was shift his perspective onto the cognitive mapping side of the house. Some of Chris's students found it hard - they said because they didn't have enough 'fundamentals' - I suggested again that they did have enough - probably too much, because they were locked into acquiring more, and along teh way, lost sight of what they said that they wanted to do. The focus on techniques hypergenerates hypotheses, and with them come whole state entrained conditions that belong to the systems that have been trawled for them.

    My own peple, with fresh starters, I teach HUD CM first, and a delivery platform later, and then only as a progression towards a means to an end. This works well in my experience, as there's nothing 'in there' program wise to interfere with them building up a goal directed map.

    I'm happy for refinement of fundamentals, that makes loads of sense, but personal experience (with all the caveats that come with that) suggest that mapping should come first. It gives people a skeptical approach to the functionality of what they learn. If it doesn't map as efefctively as something else then it becomes self-evident very quickly.

    Cheers,

    Steve.
  6. Steve Richards is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 1:14pm

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     Style: Hap-Gar Si-Ji-Hao

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    See, this is where you and I part ways, sort o speaking.
    I can state SPECIFICS to all the above in regards to equipment work, such as Focus mitts, pad wrok and the HB.

    These items develop all those skills.

    What I wanna know is, HOW can you develop them WITHOUT equipment?

    Sparring can only do so much.
    I don't regard it as a parting of company, I don't disagree with you, I just also suggest other things. If the purpose of what you do is supported by whatever activity - and can be demonstrated to do so, then obviously its a reasonable practice.

    My contribution to the original drift of this thread was to make a suggestion about another perspective - one about combat information processing, and contrast that with an emphasis in this context on equippment. Contrasting things brings similarities as well as differences into perspective. Thats good for debate.

    So, how can you develop them without equipment? I'd say those things I've listed can be developed with only a training partner plus some real experience. Your partner is a form of equipment - potentially the most real you can have - up to damage thresholds. The other essential piece of equipment is the human brain, as its that that invents all the others, and coms to its own conclusions on how its uses itself.

    Cheers,

    Steve.
  7. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 1:25pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Richards

    So, how can you develop them without equipment? I'd say those things I've listed can be developed with only a training partner plus some real experience. Your partner is a form of equipment - potentially the most real you can have - up to damage thresholds. The other essential piece of equipment is the human brain, as its that that invents all the others, and coms to its own conclusions on how its uses itself.

    Cheers,

    Steve.
    Well, the damage threshold is VERY critical, especially IF you want to train as realistically as possible.
    How do you trian speed ? you hit as fast as possible.
    How do you train impact force ? penetrative force ?
    By hitting with as much weight and speed as you can and as deep as you can.

    Training partners are essential, but not as human punching bags.

    So, are we thinking more along the lines of pre arranged sparring?
    Controlled hard contact?

    And while we hit upon protective gear ealier, the ONLY gear that CAN allow for full contact, full speed sparring, restricts the movement and reaction time of your training partner, so...
  8. Steve Richards is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 2:51pm

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     Style: Hap-Gar Si-Ji-Hao

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Well, the damage threshold is VERY critical, especially IF you want to train as realistically as possible.
    How do you trian speed ? you hit as fast as possible.
    How do you train impact force ? penetrative force ?
    By hitting with as much weight and speed as you can and as deep as you can.

    Training partners are essential, but not as human punching bags.

    So, are we thinking more along the lines of pre arranged sparring?
    Controlled hard contact?

    And while we hit upon protective gear ealier, the ONLY gear that CAN allow for full contact, full speed sparring, restricts the movement and reaction time of your training partner, so...
    Like I said up to the damage threshold. Also re bagwork and other non-human target impacting - its fine, so long as all the caveats introduced way early on by JFS in this thread are taken into consideration. Same deal with protective gear, and I agree with both you and JFS on this, even though superficially there may seem to be some divergance between you. This should now resolve us down to context - which is always decisive: what are people training for? That will decide the merits of equipment versus specificity entrainment. In the context of human form modeling, a lot (not all) useage of equipment is potentially counter-productive. If you are not explicity training for that, then it (human form modeling) may not seem relevant. Nevertheless, if human form modeling is not engaged with purposively, it will still be there tacitly, because its fundamental to how the brain makes sense of the world. Better in my opinion to make an effort to work with it, just as you would with any form of training of any other skill or attribute in MA. It gets better if you do.

    Steve.
  9. Jitsuman is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 2:57pm


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    this thread is all about stating opinions as fact, using very hard to follow language and very loose analogies.

    that is all, have a good day.
  10. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 3:00pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that, IF you use equipment in a "dead and static" state ( just punching a punching bag like most do), while you MAy develop some skills, you are short changing your development.
    Of that there is no doubt.
    There is also no doubt that the vast majority don't use equipment to their full potential.

    I can see something like this:

    A typical workout consiting of warm ups and such, followed by:

    HB work to work on your "punching power" and combinations - 5% or workout time
    Pad work to work on your cardio and speed - 5%
    Mitt work to work on your hand-eye, foot work, timing and such - 5%

    Sparring ( contact to be dependant on level and what is being trained) to put it ALL together. - 30%


    I think that, developing the skills that equipment were designed for and then applying them in the SAME workout, gives you the best of both worlds.
    You work on your kicking "power" without having to crush the legs and body of your partner, yet you still apply it on a living, breathing, reacting, person after.

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