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  1. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 3:46pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Canadian Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You know, those are some very big, immpressive and long words, they remind me of my schlong.
  2. dramaboy is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 3:51pm


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Richards
    On a more objective-empirical stance,
    The expression "objective-empirical" is redundant.
    (which, incidentally, reminds me of Ronin's schlong...)

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  3. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 3:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Canadian Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I see way too much theory being stated and NO method to apply it.
  4. WhiteShark is offline
    WhiteShark's Avatar

    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 4:11pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Richards
    Hypothesis processing is fast, and, has the capacity to quamtum-jump ahead to predicted positions, independent of 'feel' thru teh reactive, real-time sensory system (including the proprioceptive sense of spatial position and balance).

    For initial entrainment, a visual model (e.g the HUD) is efficient. Later, you must NOT project the overlay, in actual terms, as to do so is to present an internal barrier to the cognitive model that you have built up so arduously thru hrad repeated exposure to pressure. You must develop th capacity to 'devolve' responsibility for the probability modelling process to your now entrained 'battle computer' - let the program run. Nevertheless, to achieve this, you must start with basic entrainment, and for this utilizing a visual sensory model is the most effective.

    Steve.
    So is the goal Hypothesis modeling? Is that the explaination for how some fighters seem faster than they are? They have excellent hypotheses for where their opponents will go next and they get to react sooner?
  5. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 6:50pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    I see way too much theory being stated and NO method to apply it.
    Steve can model it in seconds ... seen him do it a couple of times.

    Good enough "method" for fighter pilots ... probably good enough for unarmed combat. :new_astha
  6. BenwaMandelbrot is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2005 8:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK, so are there any basic exercises you'd recommmend for entrainment? Would you suggest mentally visualizing a basic but anatomically accurate stick figure shape, maybe similar to one of those 3D motion capture systems (like the lightbulbs-on-silhouette experiment) you mentioned with larger rotational nodes at key joints? Some more nodal complexity at usual target areas like the solar plexus, neck, nose, throat, etc?

    Although the lines are simple and entirely complimentary to the movements of your opponent, it seems like it would be a hard thing to do although, if I am correct in following what you've said, it should eventually help with the `sensory overload' that often accompanies a determined attack and allow you to see the critical movements as part of the whole which would, presumably, improve your ability to accurately predict movements earlier on.

    Am I way off base on this, or have I understood things correctly? Are there any papers you could point us to that focus on the practise as well as the theory? Anything to look out for?
  7. Steve Richards is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 5:05am

    supporting member
     Style: Hap-Gar Si-Ji-Hao

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BenwaMandelbrot
    OK, so are there any basic exercises you'd recommmend for entrainment? Would you suggest mentally visualizing a basic but anatomically accurate stick figure shape, maybe similar to one of those 3D motion capture systems (like the lightbulbs-on-silhouette experiment) you mentioned with larger rotational nodes at key joints? Some more nodal complexity at usual target areas like the solar plexus, neck, nose, throat, etc?

    Although the lines are simple and entirely complimentary to the movements of your opponent, it seems like it would be a hard thing to do although, if I am correct in following what you've said, it should eventually help with the `sensory overload' that often accompanies a determined attack and allow you to see the critical movements as part of the whole which would, presumably, improve your ability to accurately predict movements earlier on.

    Am I way off base on this, or have I understood things correctly? Are there any papers you could point us to that focus on the practise as well as the theory? Anything to look out for?
    Hello BenwaMandelbrot

    Yes, you've summed that up very well.

    For a visual read in 2-D of a basic outline, presented for a specific system, you could have a look here:

    http://lionsroar.name/combat_modelling_basics.htm

    You'll see the major jouint articultaions modeled and the torso-clock, transverse and vertical control planes etc.

    Style/system is just a delivery platform, the 'doing' has to be subjective, and earned. What can be done is to find out how well various 'platforms' stand up to application of this approach. Stand-off systems are less likely to work well with it, because there is a basic contradiction between them and the HUD. Its not what a TCMA aproach would regard as a 'bridge' methodology, it about passing the bridge, and working directly on the target as a whole.

    One common problem early on, is when folks try to force specific techniques or 'style rules' into it. My answer to them is to let the HUD 'tell' you what to do rather than try to make the HUD fit a style. The map has its own logic, so it 'suggests' what are workable motions. Refinement in techinque comes from this, as The HUD is about natural human form modeling, not about progressively refined abstractions of it.

    The HUD as an overlay should only be used in the initial entrainment phase, it is a MODEL and it has the limitations of all physically modeled maps. However, once internalized and made tacit, it runs itself - and thats a major goal of its use, a devolved, non-conscious, fast, system of information processing.

    You should find very quickly that the 'complementary' aspect - the symetry between the two basic sides of the body mean that you can model the whole human form from as few as two, or even one map point. You can do this because proportion and relative distance are fairly constant, even with differences in height and size in an opponent.

    Because this is a probablility model, it does not rely on sight, at this stage, but of an internal spatial and temporal model, which is imposed thru action against the target. There is for example, a distance between the shoulders, along a plane that includes the head and neck. If one shoulder is facing you (laterally), then there is potential for the other shoulder to come into play thru a fairly predictable range of angles. The variations in that angle can be accomodated by action against the opposite shoulder ahead of its potential for motion. Because this is along the shoulder plane, and also takes the head/neck into consideration, you can 'follow the line' and put in a head shot/crank/choke-whatever, along the way - according to the specifics of the situation. This is a very reduced example, its not 'whole-context' but its an example to build up from.

    What should be done to build up the map, is to run scenario's like the one above, pressure test them, find as many failure-points as possible, work with these, so that you can begin to take the loading of failure, and also look at new 'firing-off' or 'refiring' points either in that plane, or somewhere else on the opponent, according to your position/structure/motion relative to his. Its a dynamic model, and its one that best works thru the experience of failure rather than success, because being closed-down is where the most mental pressure is felt, and its there that you need spare processing capacity to switch and reverse the situation.

    This works better if you have a mental model that is mapped onto the basic human form, and its potential for action in any plane elative to you.

    Cheers,

    Steve.
  8. Steve Richards is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 5:13am

    supporting member
     Style: Hap-Gar Si-Ji-Hao

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark
    So is the goal Hypothesis modeling? Is that the explaination for how some fighters seem faster than they are? They have excellent hypotheses for where their opponents will go next and they get to react sooner?
    Apart from natural physical speed, 'fast' fighters must also process quickly. If not, then they'd be balistically fast, but be relatively blind and uncoordinated.

    Not everyone is gifted with natural speed. It can be trained for, but so can processing capacity.

    As an example, it is possible to be balistically slower than your opponent - and appear to an observer to be 'slow' relative to him, but because modeling is better entrained, you can be functionally faster.

    With the getting there first scenario, they are effectively qunatum-jumping ahead of what 'presents' to a future potential position. This must be a probablility computation as it is not an immediate, sensory-data calculation. We all 'hypothesize' about future positions and relative motions, but if we have a conscious methodology to train it, then more of us can improve the more, rather than having the few outstanding naturally gifted folks always getting there first.

    Cheers,

    Steve.
  9. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 7:28am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Canadian Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe its just me, but this seems over complicated for something as simple as fighting.
    Or maybe its just they way you are trying to explain it.
  10. Steve Richards is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2005 8:58am

    supporting member
     Style: Hap-Gar Si-Ji-Hao

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Maybe its just me, but this seems over complicated for something as simple as fighting.
    Or maybe its just they way you are trying to explain it.
    For the most part, I've answered questions. In practice it (the HUD) is 'simple', in written explanation not necessarily so. If folks ask reasonable questions, then I do my best within my time and ability to reply.

    Steve.

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