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  1. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 2:08pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    But I digress, back to my question:

    Should training with equipment decrease and sparring increase as we become better ?
    maybe the question should be:

    Do you tailor your training regime to develop specific attributes that will contribute to your overall objective?
  2. Steve Richards is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 2:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: Hap-Gar Si-Ji-Hao

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd agree with Feryk, Kungfudoeswork, and lawdog, good insights and thanks for sharing them.

    My friend who's adapting his training, has a characteristic set of TOTE's that his JKD colleagues in particular share, and these can be traced by observation to their respective source who himself expresses them. The TOTE's 'fire' whenever a drill is presented to them, or even in a partner to partner demonstration.

    An advantage of human-form modelling is that its always there, IF, its a human you are in contact with. The relative shape and proportions are constant enough even with variations in height and weight etc. In fact its the variations that we should train to see past, and work with the underlying similarity. Too much variation cloggs up processing capacity - so the simpler the better, and the most simple model is the basic map of the human shape - reduced down to its minimal cues. From the minimal map, its possible to extrapolate the whole picture on the basis of a probablility computation. Very quickly the probablity element begins to predict future positions, and so allows the fighter to make a quantum jump to the future position - with a high probability of success - as the basic map will always fit - provided that its been entrained in its various relative angles, orientations, and planes of motion.

    Its probably not a good sport model, for the reasons raised by posters a page or so back - its more of a quick kill entrainment, that lends itself to whole-bandwidth techniques (including clinch/grappling). Most combat sports have evolved their own niche and naturally enough what they do fits that niche very well indeed.

    In TCMA its interesting to compare and contrast the HUD model against the raditional gate method - they are very different.

    Cheers,

    Steve.
  3. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 5:33pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    That's more or less my understanding as well. It raises a question though that I've wondered about for years.

    In this discussion there are different specific aspects being addressed as they relate to a more general theme. Without getting into the specifics of visual cueing, neural pathways, etc. (because I'm not qualified to do so), I'd like to make a general observation and ask a general question.

    But, on the other hand I look at myself. I lettered in 4 sports in high school. Over my lifetime I've trained and competed in maybe a dozen different sports, some of which required very different energy pathways and motor patterns. Despite that, I've never felt that training one movement ever interferred in any significant way with the way I moved in another sport, so long as I hadn't neglected my training in the other sport. However, if I did neglect my training in the other sport, I could definitely feel a difference in the way I tended to move.

    So, I'm wondering what accounts for the difference between what I've observed and what I've experienced regarding inappropriate grooving of motor patterns. Are some people simply more succeptible to neuro pathway "confusion" than others? Or, is it a matter of volume? Take the speed bag for example, is there really a danger of grooving inappropriate movement patterns if speed bag work is less than 10% of your training, while sparring is 50%? Aren't we able to easily switch pathways according to the context in which we find ourselves, and does the answer the this question depend on the answer to the two above?
    In simplest terms ... The Body becomes its function.

    You were/are an excellent all around athlete. You have a wealth of motor functioning development that is not common. I can't give you an exact number, but suffice it to say that you have many points or nodes of overlap.

    By overlap I mean precise coordination pathways or sections of pathways that have been created - reinforced through the many years by way of various activities.

    The rare individual who has the depth of neurological development you have is able to more quickly and accurately "connect the dots" that define the specific motor skills unique to any given physical activity. They use to be called "natural athletes" and the only thing authentically "natural" about them is the way in which they created their pool of resources.

    If you haven't done it ... I'm thinking you would become a decent Racket Ball or Badminton Player in a very short time.

    Energy pathways are similar in this regard. Through the years you have placed demands upon your Body that required switching what energy stores to tap into and your Body was required to process ... to clear the by-products as well.

    In short, your Body is very "intelligent" if that makes sense to you.

    BTW, I weight trained from age 6 until my early 20s. Mostly Power Lifting. Up through 2003 I would routinely go into a local Gym, once a year around my Birthday, pay the one day use fee and do the following:

    Full Squat 540 pounds 2 - 4 Reps, Dead Lift 450 1 - 3 Reps, Flat Back Bench Press 340 - 360 1 - 2 Reps. I did this "cold" ... no warm up of any kind, wearing jeans, sneakers & T-shirt, no wraps, no hands wraps or gloves, no weight belt, nothing ... pure raw. I never experienced any soreness after doing this. I would do a decent cool down followed by a long, hot shower.

    All of the above at a weight of around 230 pounds on an approximately 6 foot frame. I weight 230 pounds as I type this which is all of 10 pounds heavier than when I was 16.

    Since quitting weight work in my early 20s I have done no other functional strength work save for the Tid Sin Kuen. I run it 3 times a day regardless of whether my ass is on fire or the house if falling down.

    The Body becomes its function.
  4. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 5:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You've mentioned the Tid Sin Kuen before as a cornerstone of your personal routine.
    I have a couple of questions about it :-

    1) Is it useful for people trying to get 'in shape', or is it more of an efficient maintenance routine for people who are already 'in shape' ?

    2) Would you be able to describe in western terms how it works physiologically ?

    Thanks.
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  5. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 5:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    In simplest terms ... The Body becomes its function.

    You were/are an excellent all around athlete. You have a wealth of motor functioning development that is not common. I can't give you an exact number, but suffice it to say that you have many points or nodes of overlap.

    By overlap I mean precise coordination pathways or sections of pathways that have been created - reinforced through the many years by way of various activities.

    The rare individual who has the depth of neurological development you have is able to more quickly and accurately "connect the dots" that define the specific motor skills unique to any given physical activity. They use to be called "natural athletes" and the only thing authentically "natural" about them is the way in which they created their pool of resources.

    If you haven't done it ... I'm thinking you would become a decent Racket Ball or Badminton Player in a very short time.

    Energy pathways are similar in this regard. Through the years you have placed demands upon your Body that required switching what energy stores to tap into and your Body was required to process ... to clear the by-products as well.

    In short, your Body is very "intelligent" if that makes sense to you.

    BTW, I weight trained from age 6 until my early 20s. Mostly Power Lifting. Up through 2003 I would routinely go into a local Gym, once a year around my Birthday, pay the one day use fee and do the following:

    Full Squat 540 pounds 2 - 4 Reps, Dead Lift 450 1 - 3 Reps, Flat Back Bench Press 340 - 360 1 - 2 Reps. I did this "cold" ... no warm up of any kind, wearing jeans, sneakers & T-shirt, no wraps, no hands wraps or gloves, no weight belt, nothing ... pure raw. I never experienced any soreness after doing this. I would do a decent cool down followed by a long, hot shower.

    All of the above at a weight of around 230 pounds on an approximately 6 foot frame. I weight 230 pounds as I type this which is all of 10 pounds heavier than when I was 16.

    Since quitting weight work in my early 20s I have done no other functional strength work save for the Tid Sin Kuen. I run it 3 times a day regardless of whether my ass is on fire or the house if falling down.

    The Body becomes its function.
    Very interesting and it does make sense, thanks.

    Do you believe this "intelligence" (overlap) is more easily/quickly formed at an early age, or is it purely a matter of time in activity, regardless of age?

    Phenomenal lifts, BTW.
  6. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 8:07pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    You've mentioned the Tid Sin Kuen before as a cornerstone of your personal routine.
    I have a couple of questions about it :-

    1) Is it useful for people trying to get 'in shape', or is it more of an efficient maintenance routine for people who are already 'in shape' ?

    2) Would you be able to describe in western terms how it works physiologically ?

    Thanks.
    And if you have time, would you mind commenting on what you think you can get out of doing several repetitions of the opening sequence to Sup Yin as compared to Tid Sien Kuen?

    Tragically, I never got my hands on Tid Sien. It's one of those things I may move back to San Franciso for a year or two just to get my hands on. Truly a treasure.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  7. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 9:25pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    Do you believe this "intelligence" (overlap) is more easily/quickly formed at an early age, or is it purely a matter of time in activity, regardless of age?
    As KFDW stated with regard to another point ... it isn't black - white, either - or.

    When "young" we tend to "learn" very quickly. As I am using the word throughout this thread ... Learn = Permanent change in behavior, e.g., you learn to ride a bicycle. We might say potential speed of learning is greatest in the young.

    However, as we age, we accumulate a vast repository of "information" ... some applies mostly to the mental side of the house & vice versa.

    The task for those of us beyond the "Gifts of Youth" is to identify and connect with the convergent patterns ... the naturally arising wealth of prefabricated pathways born of life experience.

    Phenomenal lifts, BTW.
    Thanks, as my Physician is fond of saying "You're a FREAK." Dunno ... I kind of like her.
  8. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 9:35pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin
    This is an interesting thread.I've always been aware of my limitations and I know that I won't suddenly be able to leap from one tournament fight category to a higher one just by going to the gym a few times a week.Strenght comes after years of effort put in training not just after a couple of months of workouts and sparring.Which brings me to my questions that I've been pondering over.
    I don't know about that. The biggest fastest gains in strength really do come in the first few months. I put on roughly 25 lbs. and went from squatting about 150 lbs.( barely my own bodywieght at the time) to squatting 270 in less than a year of only training at the gym about twice a week for about an hour each time.

    A few times a week can make a huge difference. I made a big difference with just 2 times/week.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  9. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 9:38pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    You've mentioned the Tid Sin Kuen before as a cornerstone of your personal routine.
    I have a couple of questions about it :-

    1) Is it useful for people trying to get 'in shape', or is it more of an efficient maintenance routine for people who are already 'in shape' ?
    Both. Get in "shape" ... develop power (functional strength) ... become efficient at tapping into and clearing the by-products of at least 3 metabolic (energy) pathways ... lots of things.

    What's really sweet about the Tid Sin Kuen is that it plays well with any other MA system - style - method I've encountered to date. Regardless of approach I haven't had a single person not come back and tell me their game shot upward. Got more than a couple of them in trouble with their Sifu. **** them.

    Peeps tend to focus on the physical movements and yeah ... they are important. However, their real value is to be found in concert with something else and absent this understanding you just have a dynamic tension set. Could probably get as far by following Charles Atlas ... just wouldn't look as cool getting there.

    2) Would you be able to describe in western terms how it works physiologically ? Thanks.
    Sure, not really sure I would want to do that on an open forum. It's something I teach in person so it's not like I'm holding back anything as none of "it" really belongs to me ... I'm just a temporary Caretaker.
  10. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2005 9:42pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    And if you have time, would you mind commenting on what you think you can get out of doing several repetitions of the opening sequence to Sup Yin as compared to Tid Sien Kuen?
    Damn ... you really are Old School ... cool. You can get something. The ceiling will come up fast as the physical must be wedded to something and that's the unstated part of the equation that many shitrat Sifu hold back. I fix it for their Tudai when they come to me. Takes very little time to teach ... a life time of progess to pursue.

    Tragically, I never got my hands on Tid Sien. It's one of those things I may move back to San Franciso for a year or two just to get my hands on. Truly a treasure.
    Either that or lay on a one week trip to Maryland ... I'll teach it to you.
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