The Fallacy of Training Machines

[JFS USA]

So what is your alternative to doing drills and bag work?

I'm not addressing "drills" until later in this thread.

Let's pick up bag work for a moment. For a relative Noob hitting, kicking, elbow striking, knee striking, etc., a heavy bag is a prudent way to go. Their body needs time in activity in order to undergo an adaptive response to rapid force loading through their joints and limbs.

A bag also offers some measure of safety by way of being uniformed ... it is a "thing" that presents in constant fashion so that grooved movement is more readily obtained. By way of example, a hanging heavy bag doesn't present as 4 feet in length weighing 75 pounds one moment and then reconfigures to a much more compact & dense structure the next moment.

Noobs are going to make a lot of mistakes and decreasing the risk of injury factor whenever possible is just common sense.

Just sparring all the time?

I know of no runner who ever became faster by concentrating on swimming. Do you?

Training with resistance is tiring, so are you suggesting that you should stop as soon as you get tired or that you not train with resistance?

You are doing the same thing as Osiris, Kidspatula, and that is using "training" and "practice" as interchangeable terms. They are entirely separate activities until a high level of skill is achieved. Then and only then do they blend to some degree.

[Omar]

Another really interesting thread here.

I dunno. Maybe it's out so called protestand work ethic or something but it seems like there is a really deeply engrained intuitive belief that more misery in training automatically yields more benifits. I have it too. This kind of semi-concious programming that tells me if I can barely walk for the next four hours then I must be training like a real badass. Heaven forbid I should finish training feeling refreshed and ready for a fight.

Using PET scans it has been shown that the level of brain activity required for an untrained skill is much greater than the brain activity for a learned skill. St o when you’re doing something you’re not used to your brain is going through a storm of electrical activity. When it is doing something it is skilled at it fires a single neurological pathway, which is much quicker and more efficient.

Only if you are doing the skilled "something" on automatic. Not to be confused with the Straightblast guys, this is what my teacher calls "dead training". His definition of "live" doesn't have to do with the amount of resistance being offered but with the amount of mental, emotional and psychological engagement in the movement. Most drill tend to be dead. But the very same drill can be alive IF your brain is engaged the right way. It's not just what you do but what is your level of mental engagement. But simply being familiar with a movement doesn't necessitate a disengagement of the brain. That's just lazyness.

If you work the bag, you need to be constantly thinking about every punch. You need to really engage. Create combos based on your experience sparring. Imagine the potential counterpunches coming at you and move accordingly.
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One of those sacred cows I think is the notion about how exhausted you are suppost to get. My current teacher insists you should never train to the very end. You have to always have something in reserve. Just use about 90% but not to fear. The amount it is 90% of will keep increasing and since you didn't kill yourself you won't spend so much time in recovery.

[Vile]

I read the first few posts before clicking that you were using different terms but similar philosophies to what I have seen. I was going to rant, but then I read it again.

I think the main dissimilarity lies in the degree to which much MA training is cardio/endurance based to improve fitness and the TaeBo types who think fitness is the be-all and end-all of fighting. Speed bag - coordination and fitness. Heavy bag - condtioning of striking surfaces and fitness. Wooden dummy - sexual substitue for Bruce Lee fetishists. You can get some bad habits from using bags too much, including stepping back to reset the distance, which just gets you kicked in the head in a real situation, but:

I don't see anything wrong with cardio/endurance training, as it ties back into much of what you are saying - the fresher you are when you fight the better. If I am fitter and the movements I use exhaust me less as I have strengthened the muscles involved, then the longer the fight goes on and the greater the dissimilarity in the states of our exhaustion the more likely the I am to kick ass. Thats pretty much what you are saying anyway correct?

So its more involved with people understanding when they are working the bag for endurance and when they are working the bag for technique. From what I gather you are saying its pointless to completely sacrifice the technique for the endurance whcih is true, however the idea is surely to train to the point where your techniques are executed well even when exhausted. I've repeated endless rounds for having sloppy technique - have always been told do it right or not at all. Thats an aspiration that may be beyond most people but its not about the destination, its about the journey. As long as your instructor is good it shouldn't be an issue if you listen to them about your technique.

I think you need to be more specific when you refer to drills. The "formal self defence" type ones are ****. Thats plain and simple. Two guys standing how they do when they fight, taking turns to strike and retaliate at as close to full speed as they can get while working light/medium contact is useful - ie: People strike and do so in the manner your partner is doing (this means throwing fighting techniques not some stupid chambered lunge punch), you learn to defend and retaliate fluidly or you get repeatedly punched/kicked/otherwise injured in some form or manner. Its no use if you also don't spar fully resisting and full contact, but its great prep for trying to work new combos or techniques in. If you keep your description of drills as broad as it is, you would seem to be saying there is no reason for a boxer to train to throw a jab-cross-hook combo, as thats a drill, and as long as he could throw each one individually he should be able to string them together.

[Torakaka]

I'm not addressing "drills" until later in this thread.

Let's pick up bag work for a moment. For a relative Noob hitting, kicking, elbow striking, knee striking, etc., a heavy bag is a prudent way to go. Their body needs time in activity in order to undergo an adaptive response to rapid force loading through their joints and limbs.

A bag also offers some measure of safety by way of being uniformed ... it is a "thing" that presents in constant fashion so that grooved movement is more readily obtained. By way of example, a hanging heavy bag doesn't present as 4 feet in length weighing 75 pounds one moment and then reconfigures to a much more compact & dense structure the next moment.

Noobs are going to make a lot of mistakes and decreasing the risk of injury factor whenever possible is just common sense.



I know of no runner who ever became faster by concentrating on swimming. Do you?



You are doing the same thing as Osiris, Kidspatula, and that is using "training" and "practice" as interchangeable terms. They are entirely separate activities until a high level of skill is achieved. Then and only then do they blend to some degree.

Ok, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. I see there's a discrepancy in symmantics as I would consider drilling and practice and conditioning as parts of training.

"I know of no runner who ever became faster by concentrating on swimming. Do you?"

So you ARE saying that the only valid training exercise is sparring?

[JFS USA]

Another really interesting thread here.

I dunno. Maybe it's out so called protestand work ethic or something but it seems like there is a really deeply engrained intuitive belief that more misery in training automatically yields more benifits. I have it too. This kind of semi-concious programming that tells me if I can barely walk for the next four hours then I must be training like a real badass. Heaven forbid I should finish training feeling refreshed and ready for a fight.

It is a deeply engrained belief and it plays well in many arenas. However, having slogged through a couple decades of staggering away from practice sessions due to extreme fatigue often times compounded by having my ass kicked up around my ears I can honestly say this: What I learned was that all the attending misery was neither necessary nor productive.

I try to get this message out whenever possible ... as I tell my Students "You can learn a lot about how NOT to do things by listening to my personal experiences."

I look "okay" from the outside ... for an old geezer ... inside, I'm busted up pretty bad and I've been told by Internists and Ortho. Specialists "Learn to live with it as the damage in done."

As I age out the "real" meaning of life has shifted from seeking "The Greater Glory of John" to being of some small measure of help to other Human Beings.

I really hate to see peeps embarking on a course of action I know for a fact, by way of living it, will come back to haunt them later in life.

[JFS USA]

Ok, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. I see there's a discrepancy in symmantics as I would consider drilling and practice and conditioning as parts of training.

If you chunk it down into more discrete elements you will improve faster and the learning curve will be steeper. It's not by accident that for many years telephone numbers in the USA were only 7 digits long.

So you ARE saying that the only valid training exercise is sparring?

We really need to agree upon the definition of terms before I can comment on this. The next step is to establish the proper context. The context will shift and slide depending upon what is the focus at the time. Language is inherently sloppy but it's all we have to work with at the moment.

I'm not being difficult, Kidspatula. I prize the "Aha" moment more than many things and I think you are sincere about pursuing your chosen discipline. Otherwise, I would just tell you to eat **** and die.

After all ... as you have posted ... I'm an idiot. :violent1:

[Jitsuman]

Osiris has a valid point here.

as far as "training" in the context of "working out" to build muscle, you are supposed to physically exhaust yourself to the point of total muscle failure. That way when you heal, you build yourself back stronger.

Also, martial arts training utilizes concepts of "muscle memory", you're supposed to get hurt, tired, injured (to a degree) to build yourself into a tougher person in the long run. You're supposed to get used to doing a set of movements almost instinctually, and the best way to ensure you can do them instinctually, is to practice them when youre too physically and mentally 'beat down' to think about the movements as you do them. Let your muscles and training do the thinking for you.

At least, that is how I see it. I figure that if i always pracitice "fresh", when I'm in a real situation, and beat down and tired, I'll be out of my element.

[Omar]

Osiris has a valid point here.

as far as "training" in the context of "working out" to build muscle, you are supposed to physically exhaust yourself to the point of total muscle failure. That way when you heal, you build yourself back stronger.

. . .

At least, that is how I see it. I figure that if i always pracitice "fresh", when I'm in a real situation, and beat down and tired, I'll be out of my element.

Emphasis added.

[Jitsuman]

can you elaborate on what the *point* of the emphasis was?

[Dusty Larson]

Osiris has a valid point here.

as far as "training" in the context of "working out" to build muscle, you are supposed to physically exhaust yourself to the point of total muscle failure. That way when you heal, you build yourself back stronger.

I heard the same thing from marine poolees regarding pull ups. "If you work 'til you can't do 'em anymore, your muscles will be built back stronger than ever."

The result? I improved from 5 to 16 in about two months by coaxing my way up there, and everybody else was stuck doing the same amount they've always done...some even dropped in count.

Also, during boot, I rolled my ankle several times. It appeared very swollen after being damaged so often.

That's similar to how bodybuilding works. You damage your muscles by overexertion, and they'll probably look bigger, and you might get stronger...but it's too much work for a little desired result. I could do something else to get power, for example, as opposed to weight lifting. Like power lifting even. :new_spira

Also, martial arts training utilizes concepts of "muscle memory", you're supposed to get hurt, tired, injured (to a degree) to build yourself into a tougher person in the long run. You're supposed to get used to doing a set of movements almost instinctually, and the best way to ensure you can do them instinctually, is to practice them when youre too physically and mentally 'beat down' to think about the movements as you do them. Let your muscles and training do the thinking for you.

At least, that is how I see it. I figure that if i always pracitice "fresh", when I'm in a real situation, and beat down and tired, I'll be out of my element.

But once you are completely "awake" in the mental aspect, what do you do when your "kill em all" mentality isn't enough to overcome somebody? Just because you want something very bad mentally doesn't mean you'll get it in reality.