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  1. Steve Richards is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 2:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: Hap-Gar Si-Ji-Hao

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Lets look at pad work for example:

    They are targets, held by a trained coach, they also work as gloves.
    The person hitting them well target on them and well defend himself from them.
    As he would with a "real fighter".
    The head movement, blocks, parries and counters would be the same he woudl use in a "real fight", or at least a possibel to them as possible.

    Pad work is desigend to develop/improve/maintain timimg, hand-eye coordination, defence, footwork.
    And, when done correctly, they do just that.

    As for mapping, that is NOT their job, no more than the job of shadow boxing or doing forms is to do the job of focus mitts.
    So they have their intrinsic value, and that I fully accept. However, as John has raised a few times on this thread, to what extent do these intrinsic benefits carry over into real world aplication - and - do they in fact create an interference pattern because they do not 'map' accurately, but are close enough to infer such a transfer?

    Pads are great for callibration and a great exercise, but they are negatively indicated for real world mapping. The best 'target' - is the natural human form.

    Steve.
  2. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 2:10pm

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     Style: Canadian Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Richards
    So they have their intrinsic value, and that I fully accept. However, as John has raised a few times on this thread, to what extent do these intrinsic benefits carry over into real world aplication - and - do they in fact create an interference pattern because they do not 'map' accurately, but are close enough to infer such a transfer?

    Pads are great for callibration and a great exercise, but they are negatively indicated for real world mapping. The best 'target' - is the natural human form.

    Steve.

    They carry more value than simply punching and kicking into the air.
  3. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 2:17pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark
    THAT IS NOT EVEN WHAT ENTRAIN MEANS!!!!!

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Entrain
    Your reading comprehension is pathetic. What College or University did you attend?

    (n-trn)
    tr.v. en·trained, en·train·ing, en·trains
    To pull or draw along after itself.

    In context: The activity generates and reinforces specific neurological patterns ... pathways of coordination. The activity ... which comes first ... results in (pulls or draws) neurological pathways.

    BTW, the terminology I use comes from not some small amount of formal study in an institute of higher learning setting. You might want to "research" a bit as I posted up this piece of my formal education on another thread. Seek, find and consider.
  4. SifuAbel is online now
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    Hole in one.

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 2:19pm

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     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    To work with those machines incorrectly.
    In the hands of someone skilled, they can be just as unpredicatble as a "real person".
    Except for the Wooden Phallus thing.
    I think some of the points being reached here is that humans are not connected to chains on thier heads and have 100 pound feet.

    That too much emphasis is being given to methods that don't incorporate the human form.

    That people have become accostomed to moving in respect to their aparatus' instead of the human form. Hence, people whom hit bags and not much else tend to just stand there. They are patterened to hit something that has no arms and legs.

    Bottom line, none of that stuff moves.

    I love heavy bag work, but I see immediately what the limitations are. I concider it to help with only a small peice of the bigger puzzle. Bags don't hit back. Bags are immortal.
    Give to Haiti relief. text "haiti' to 90999
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  5. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 2:20pm

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Richards
    "Entrainment" means what it means in its context - despite what your dictionary quotation suggests. For example, its commonly used in psychobiological hypnosis to describe state-dependent conditioning, involving social, psychological and neuro-endocrine 'entrainments' - in other words learned states.

    If you scroll down your dictionary page you'll see this:

    Main Entry: en·train
    Pronunciation: in-'trAn
    Function: transitive verb
    : to determine or modify the phase or period of <circadian rhythms entrained by a light cycle> —en·train·ment /-'trAn-m&nt/ noun

    Circadian rhythms and their governing ultradian rhythms are used in psychophysiology as entrainment facilitators, because they involve the natural regulation of informational states within the mind/body. Any activity has such profiles.

    Trained states in MA are 'entrainments'.

    Steve.

    Are you saying that MA training is a Biofeedback system? Because that is the only use of Entrain that I could see applying here.

    If that is what you're saying I find that pretty thought provoking and would love to see some studies that support that.
    Last edited by WhiteShark; 12/01/2005 2:22pm at .
  6. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 2:28pm

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     Style: Canadian Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuDoesWork
    I think some of the points being reached here is that humans are not connected to chains on thier heads and have 100 pound feet.

    That too much emphasis is being given to methods that don't incorporate the human form.

    That people have become accostomed to moving in respect to their aparatus' instead of the human form. Hence, people whom hit bags and not much else tend to just stand there. They are patterened to hit something that has no arms and legs.

    Bottom line, none of that stuff moves.

    I love heavy bag work, but I see immediately what the limitations are. I concider it to help with only a small peice of the bigger puzzle. Bags don't hit back. Bags are immortal.

    Most people do indeed hit the bag like that got cement shoes, even I, on occasion am guilty of this ( usually when I am working on specifics or to fucking tired to move my sorry ass).
    Fact is, you SHOULD fight the HB and the mitts, not just hit them.

    Equipment serves it purpose and that is to develop the tools for fighting.
    I would rather spend 10 min on the bag than doing shadow boxing, if I has to choose just one.


    In order of importance for a fighter:
    Sparring
    Mitt/pad work
    Heavy Bag
    Fighting.

    If you are wondering why I put fighting last, then this thread is NOT for you.
  7. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 2:31pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    They carry more value than simply punching and kicking into the air.
    In terms of grooving the perfect World pathways? Not hardly. It's application based work that requires some measure of real time modification in terms of structure - technique.

    As I stated earlier, pads present false visual cues. Do you deny that? To do so is to declare that Human Beings have a structure or structures that visually present as analogs to pads. Where are they to be found?

    It's not a matter of "What's better than something else." it's a matter of what is best ... in context. Wrapping **** in gold leaf might be "better" than wrapping it in old newspaper ... but that doesn't alter the fact it's **** ... in context.

    The main hurdle in this thread is that two entirely different frames of reference are being used ... context. One is that of the individual seeking martial excellence and the other is that of the hobbyist of whatever level of intensity.

    I don't think it's possible to reconcile the two positions. Since I was the one who started the thread it bears my imprint. I have no interest in hobbyists. If they can pick up something that is useful or interesting to them ... cool.

    If your % are accurate then I think it only reasonable that the 1% get a little something now and then as economic factors all ready skew the majority of emphasis towards the hobbyist.
  8. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 2:34pm

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ignoring other **** flinging in this thread.
    JFS_USA would you say that Thai fighters (locals from Thailand) are inferior fighters because they use so much equipment training? Or at least that they are good in spite of the type of equipment based training that they receive?
  9. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 2:34pm

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     Style: Canadian Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would put my money on the MA that has developed his fighting skills based on pad work and bag work, over one that has it done based on Forms.

    I have done both, soley at times, and my skill level developed and improved or was maintained mych better with equipment than without.

    I would like to see you ( or anyone) develop IronPalm without the "beanbag".
  10. SifuAbel is online now
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    Hole in one.

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2005 2:36pm

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     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well. you said it yourself. "A skilled person could make it work" A skilled would have to a have skilled imagination and "place" the person in side the bag.

    Your not choosing just one. Thats another point , that people tend to be very myopic in this sense. Bullshidos mantra is "you gotta do it all" but it seems its a selective all. people want a cure all. " hit the heavy bag and you'll be a good fighter. " Doing this (X) is all you need. There is no all you need, you need it all.
    Give to Haiti relief. text "haiti' to 90999
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