The Fallacy of Training Machines

[roly]

There is an interesting phenomena associated with approximations, typically in MA referred to as "drills" and when presented it will run counter-intuitive. However, the "truth" regarding drills is in fact the truth. Namely, drills tend to be far more counter-productive than assistive in nature. I'll provide the rationale for this being the case at some future point in time.

i'd like to hear some more on this. i'm of the opinion that drills can be quite helpful

[TehDeadlyDimMak]

Well, let's take a look at it from a purely rational perspective.

Correct positioning against what? In what reasonable manner does a fixed in space wood arm represent a dynamically extending or retracting Human limb? Of what value is a fixed limb that presents none of the visual cues attending a "live" limb? What can possibly transfer to the target activity ... engaging a live limb, by way of sensory feedback ... feel?

How does the fixed balance point of a wooden structure (the dummy body) in any fashion represent the feel upon contact with a Human limb? Keep in mind that when "static" the Human Form has a balance point roughly in plane with the Earth and at about the level of the navel. When moving the Human Form's balance point shifts to about mid-chest level and in plane with the Earth.

Arm conditioning? Why not 3 Star Block and get not only the correct sensory feedback upon contact, but also get exposure to making contact with something that is moving through space? Your partner is also experiencing contact conditioning. If it's primarily a matter of contact conditioning then why not use a tree or telephone pole?

By "3 Star Block" you are referring to the exercise where two people stand across from one another and hit their forearms against each other 3 times per set then change arms correct?

[JFS USA]

Ok you say that through your years of traning you've found that bag work is useless improving .So that leaves only pad work left.

I stated no such thing.

Which just so happens to be a more concentrated (ie.tougher ) training that can be used to improve fighting ability.IMO.

Really? Let's look at it a tad more closely. Pads are held either off of the body or held against the body.

While off the body you are keying in on false visual cues. In real World your intended target will never present as an disc nor will it be removed from the torso proper.

While held on the body the pad(s) present a flat surface, which is rarely if ever found on the Human Form, and it will visually appear isolated - separate or different from the body proper.

Either way you approach it you are programming in movement(s) in response to a completely false series of visual cues.

Not only are the visual cues wrong, but the attending sensory feedback ... the post impact return of force through the issuing limb or structure is also wrong.

The pad distorts force in a way not typical of the Human Form, therefore, how it feeds back force (action - reaction) is false in relationship to how it will be when
impacting a Human Being.

Much of "flow" of movement in combat is dependent upon "recovery" or how quickly you are able to account for the distortion of your shape in response to forces received or issued. Why load false imprints into your body?

Do a lot of pad work and you will in fact become more skilled ... at doing pad work.

[JFS USA]

You're SUPPOSED to work out when you're beaten down and exhausted. Thats your best time right there.

Your proof?

[JFS USA]

i'd like to hear some more on this. i'm of the opinion that drills can be quite helpful

I'm not going to post on approximation to target activity drills until later in this thread.

I see where the slaying of Sacred Cows is all ready getting a rise out of those who would much rather worship their preconceived notions. :XXjester:

Like I posted at the start ... I'm not out to convert anyone.

Those that step out onto the mat, or floor, with me are left to ponder how someone more times than not older than their Father handled them.

In many ways it's a rather simple answer ... I "work" smarter ... not harder. Unlike most of my generation I am beholden to no "way" as such. Some would have us all still living in caves making fire by rubbing sticks together.

[JFS USA]

By "3 Star Block" you are referring to the exercise where two people stand across from one another and hit their forearms against each other 3 times per set then change arms correct?

That's one way and that is generally performed in a semi-static condition, e.g., revolving from Horse Stance to Bow & Arrow Stance. I don't much care for that way.

[Torakaka]

So what is your alternative to doing drills and bag work? Just sparring all the time? Training with resistance is tiring, so are you suggesting that you should stop as soon as you get tired or that you not train with resistance?

[roly]

JFS USA, here is an example of what i was talking about in my previous post

armbar drill from gaurd we do sometimes
person 1 has person 2 in his gaurd
person 2 is compliant (gives a little resistance but lets you get the arm)
person 1 does the armbar setup for the left arm, then swings over to the right arm, repeat 10 times

now, maybe our opinions of a "drill" are different, but its my belief that drilling a move in such a way is a great teaching and refining tool

[JFS USA]

None of this can be PROVEN. Niether fighting nor training is an exact science. I can give you my reasoning though. I can also give you a **** load of references and anectdotes, but those shouldn't mean much.

I beg to differ with you. Millions of US tax payer dollars were spent playing catch up in the realm of Sports Science during the Cold War with the former USSR. International Sports competition was a political proving ground of sorts for the competing systems.

Why shouldn't the references and personal exeriences mean much? I value them.

Under what condition do I fight? Tired, beat down, worn out. At least as the fight progresses.

If this state represents the majority of your fight time then I suggest to you that you have a poor baseline. If this state represents the minority of time then I ask why you focus on a minor part of the experience rather than the majority?

So really, those are the conditions I need to work under. If you train or practice fresh, you'll be good fresh, but like the noob on the bag, you'll suffer when you're tired.

You really need to read my first post Osiris as you are confusing "practice" with "training" and I know you are more intelligent than that.

BTW, everyone "suffers" when tired ... it's part and parcel of the activity. I find it kind of perverse that peeps invariably regard being tired & fatigued as "negative" or "bad" when it is simply a phase of, or part of, the whole.

Do you find yourself typically engaged in competition where you are tired & fatigued but your opponent Daisy Fresh? Probably not as I think you know well enough to properly prepare.

I don't "run from" or attempt to suppress the fatigue and pain ... I openly embrace it. Do you know why?

So you train when you're tired too. At that point, its not exactly PHYSICAL training you're after, but mental training. You need to push out those techniques when you're out of energy, physically and mentally.

You’re still muddying the waters with regard to training and practice. If you read all my posts thus far you will see where I clearly endorse going "deep into the Well" at least a few times. For the very reason you cite to ... the mental conditioning.

[JFS USA]

JFS USA, here is an example of what i was talking about in my previous post

armbar drill from gaurd we do sometimes
person 1 has person 2 in his gaurd
person 2 is compliant (gives a little resistance but lets you get the arm)
person 1 does the armbar setup for the left arm, then swings over to the right arm, repeat 10 times

now, maybe our opinions of a "drill" are different, but its my belief that drilling a move in such a way is a great teaching and refining tool

Okay ... we are working with different definitions of "drill" as what you posted represents a reasonable and valid approach to practice.