The Fallacy of Training Machines

[Omar]

I have been lately coming to think that the cart is often before the horse. The best way I know how, so far, to teach someone to fight standing up is to give them some gloves and tell them to just go for it.

First you need to convince them that it really is ok to hit you and that they aren't really capable of hurting you . . . .yet.

THEN after you've had a chance to watch their natural instincts a bit you start hitting back a little. Then, only after frustration starts to set in, you stop sparring and give the person drills. What drills you give them depends on what you observed sparring. Different drills for different people and feel free to abandon the drills once the habit you wanted to engrain has been engrained.

Just as bag work becomes less usefull the better you get, shadowboxing gets more usefull the better you get because you have more and more experience to base your imaginary motions on. Eventually, you start to create your own drills for yourself according to whatever "problems" you are working on and your drills may be completely useless yo someone else because they are completely personal.

I'd like to polish up this post a bit before I post it but the bell just rang and I have to ge back to class.

[WingChun Lawyer]

I have been lately coming to think that the cart is often before the horse. The best way I know how, so far, to teach someone to fight standing up is to give them some gloves and tell them to just go for it.

First you need to convince them that it really is ok to hit you and that they aren't really capable of hurting you . . . .yet.

THEN after you've had a chance to watch their natural instincts a bit you start hitting back a little. Then, only after frustration starts to set in, you stop sparring and give the person drills. What drills you give them depends on what you observed sparring. Different drills for different people and feel free to abandon the drills once the habit you wanted to engrain has been engrained.

Just as bag work becomes less usefull the better you get, shadowboxing gets more usefull the better you get because you have more and more experience to base your imaginary motions on. Eventually, you start to create your own drills for yourself according to whatever "problems" you are working on and your drills may be completely useless yo someone else because they are completely personal.

I'd like to polish up this post a bit before I post it but the bell just rang and I have to ge back to class.

That would be a very interesting teaching method. You should write an actual article on this, I believe - maybe a joint venture with John?

[Ronin]

I have been lately coming to think that the cart is often before the horse. The best way I know how, so far, to teach someone to fight standing up is to give them some gloves and tell them to just go for it.

First you need to convince them that it really is ok to hit you and that they aren't really capable of hurting you . . . .yet.

THEN after you've had a chance to watch their natural instincts a bit you start hitting back a little. Then, only after frustration starts to set in, you stop sparring and give the person drills. What drills you give them depends on what you observed sparring. Different drills for different people and feel free to abandon the drills once the habit you wanted to engrain has been engrained.

Just as bag work becomes less usefull the better you get, shadowboxing gets more usefull the better you get because you have more and more experience to base your imaginary motions on. Eventually, you start to create your own drills for yourself according to whatever "problems" you are working on and your drills may be completely useless yo someone else because they are completely personal.

I'd like to polish up this post a bit before I post it but the bell just rang and I have to ge back to class.

We are comparing apples to oranges when we take things like sparring and shadowboxing and "compare" them to equipment training.

Sparring teaches you how to fight.
Shadowbowing allows you to see the flaws in your exacution.

Bag work, pad work, mitt work, develop the physical skills to fight.
You CAN'T develop striking power by hitting the air.
You CAN'T develop hand eye coordination by throwing techniques into nothing.
You CAN'T develop PROPER depth of penetration of a strike by hitting air.
You CAN'T develop the develop proper aligment in your strikes by shadowboxing.


You can't negelct equipment work, if you do you well be short changing yourself.

[Ronin]

Now, inregards to "useless" workout methodologies.

Sure the speed bag, in of itself is NOT a great tool for a boxer, nor does skipping rope or jogging for long distances have much to do with fighting.
BUT, I have found that, if people enjoy a certain activity and there is SOME cross over benefit, then there is nothing wrong with them doing it.
Some may argue that times "wasted" on this endevours is just that, times wasted when they could be doing more sparring or whatever, BUT, as any old school Boxing coach will tell you, variety keeps people frome getting burned out.

Sure spending 10 min sparring is better for you than 10 min jumping rope, BUT not everyone can spar all the time.

Many of these "supplementary exercises" are time fillers and intensity breakers, they are good for warming up or cooling down.

As long as they don't get taken out of context.

[JFS USA]

hahahahhahahaha!

The Kid can do it! Must be a woman thing - you guys would never have admitted to 'seeing' someone else's 'perspective' without fifty pages of high octane dick beating.

Bullshit ... I'm quick to admit when I'm wrong. It does me no good to argue about it when I can simply admit I was wrong and then move to the correct position.

I ALWAYS stop to ask for directions when I'm driving around and get lost.

[WhiteShark]

BTW, if you are Thai kicking correctly jumping rope is NOT useless.

[Ronin]

BTW, if you are Thai kicking correctly jumping rope is NOT useless.

Please explain.

[WingChun Lawyer]

I ALWAYS stop to ask for directions when I'm driving around and get lost.

Obviously the sex changing operation wasn´t terribly successful, Joanna darling.








(sorry, sorry, it was stronger than me, do carry on the excellent discussion)

[JFS USA]

BTW, if you are Thai kicking correctly jumping rope is NOT useless.

Really? Let's see ... that means when you Thai kick "correctly" you:

Bounce off of 1 or both feet in a relatively upright manner;

Your pelvic girdle remains fairly in plane with the Earth;

Your hip articulation is never more than a few inches in arc;

Your knee doesn't travel anywhere near waist level;

You remain square on or near square on facing throughout the kick;

All return force loading is near perpendicular to the Earth.

Hmmm ... BULLSHIT.

[WhiteShark]

Really? Let's see ... that means when you Thai kick "correctly" you:

Bounce off of 1 or both feet in a relatively upright manner;

Your pelvic girdle remains fairly in plane with the Earth;

Your hip articulation is never more than a few inches in arc;

Your knee doesn't travel anywhere near waist level;

You remain square on or near square on facing throughout the kick;

All return force loading is near perpendicular to the Earth.

Hmmm ... BULLSHIT.

You're talking about practice, I'm talking about Training. If Training is not allowed in this thread it is indeed useless. If we let Training benefit make an activity useful, jumping rope is fine for MT. Jumping rope Trains your standing on your toes and bouncing muscles. Calf raises are likely as useful but more boring IMO. Watch any pure MT guy in the gym or the ring they are constantly on their toes and starting round kicks with a quick calf contraction. Sound like Jumping rope yet? Furthermore, standing on your toes all during practice and round kicking as much as possible is probably better but the first is already done and without epic conditioning the latter will end much more quickly than jumping rope.