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  1. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 5:16pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    Sorry if I've misunderstood, but are you saying that there is no such thing as a generalised targeting ability which can be improved?
    Ahhh ... very good ... let's open the envelope a bit. Many types of training and practice "generalize" ... there is some measure of improvement in the specific target activity.

    This is my point of departure: Generalized gains falls off in response to an increase in skill level.

    Soldiers don't have to shoot at things that look like people to get better at killing, is it the case that I have to punch only things that look like faces?
    See above. Skill level dependent and for most of us it becomes a matter of "bang per buck" so to speak. If I'm going to get a "X"% increase in skill by way of functional strength training and a "2X"% gain in skill from activity specific work I'm probably going to focus on the activity specific work. I might even cycle out at some point and focus on the functional strength element and then go back into the activity specific work. Keeping it "fresh" is what has allowed me to engage in my chosen MA on a daily basis for over 40 years.

    As a FYI thing, I'm ex-US Army, ODA 735, A Co., 1st Bn., 7th SFG(A), and was awarded the Bronze Star with Victory Device for exceptional valor in combat. I might know a little bit about what a Soldier does and doesn't do.

    (note: I am a BJJ guy, and punch both in an embarassing limp-wristed fashion, and rarely)
    A very minor defect you could correct in about 30 days. Fix it and shitcan the apology stuff. The bio-mechanics you use in Grappling are right in tune with upright striking and vice versa.

    What I'm getting at in a more general way is, how exact does the fit to target activity have to be? At its logical extreme there would be no point training with anyone other than clones of my future opponents, and no point in drills other than full contact NHB. (note: This is not a characterisation of JFS' arguement)
    A very good question as well. There is no "one size fits all" solution and much of the determining criteria has to be validated through subjective means.

    You might want to start with the biggest, strongest, toughest guy in your gym and work your way down until you find that you have gone flatline in the progress department.

    As for machines - devices you would need to develop a carefully documented training and practice log (I kept meticulous notes for many years) ... factor in a certain machine work both in terms of frequency and duration and then solicit "honest" feedback from your partners. You need honest feedback to document and track the degree to which transfer to target activity is taking place.

    Eventually, you will have developed a very clear and accurate frame of reference. That's the good news. The bad news is that by the time you accomplish this your skill level will have undergone profound change and the very frame of reference you carefully crafted will no longer apply. That's some fucked up **** ... yeah ... been there and done that. Tossed all my training logs and went out for a few beers when it dawned on me.
  2. Jason74 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 5:17pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Yep, one person is scared and other person is glad of it. "He who gets there the firstest with the mostest wins." Grammatical abomination but pretty much true..
    Yes, that has been my experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Accurate observations.
    Thanks


    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Never cared for that approach when I worked the doors. Too damned much gun and knife play to allow a guy to get untracked. Soft sell talk to ramp down the situation if possible ... waste him straight out if not possible.
    That is where I ended up. I started out thinking it was a fight, I ended up thinking it was a doen deal, and how quick can get get it over with. Talk to them first with respect, then deal with them if they prove that they do not warrant respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Well, let's take a good look at this for a moment. Would you not agree that a "real" fight rapidly consumes a lot of energy? Would you not agree that in a "real" fight chances are you are going to eat some shots? .
    [/QUOTE]

    I guess it depends alot on how a real fight develops. If I am jumped and have to go from sitting back watching to getting clocked in the head and fighting through it, then yes, there is alot of energy spent because I am going to get very excited and probably suffer an adrenaline dump and will throw alot of energy into getting my ass out of the sling it is in. If I am getting into a fight knowing it is coming, there is alot less energy dumped because I am consciously staying calm and not allowing myself to go into adrenaline dump.... I'm not trying to brag or act like a bad ass, but honestly in all the years I worked the bar, no one ever managed to hit me in a significant way...I took some piddly little ****, but never a real banger, though I fought some people that could probably really hit hard...I just read the situation and moved quickly past thier arms and to their back and choked them...I really got pretty damned good at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Let's lump the two above together and refer to them as "system demands." Now, do a simple experiment that drops out the absorbing punishment element. Go outside and sprint all out for as long as you can. Is it anything, anything at all like 15 minutes? Go to a swimming pool ... hop in and pull out laps ... using whatever stroke you want ... as fast as you can for as long as you can. Did you last anything like 15 minutes.

    When it comes to force production, and that's all we are really discussing at this time, "time or duration in the activity" is inversely proportional to pace of activity.


    And the metabolic energy pathways you will be using are entirely different from those the body utilizes in an activity extending out to 15 minutes. Some energy stores are depleted in a handful of seconds and some hang around for a "few" minutes. Keep in mind that your body also has to clear the byproducts of energy consumption in order for you to maintain anything like peak performace functioning.



    Hmmm ... dubious proposition at best. I've seen more than a few NFT fighters who would kill ... literally ... any and all of the UFC fighters I've seen ... up through UFC 21 ... I think. That picking peeps up, slamming them down and then playing **** around in someone's guard ... or being dependent upon a containment device to limit - restrict their opponent's mobility so a submission hold can be applied would be their death sentence.



    Then you might want to reconsider your post. Much of what you allude to falls into the fallacy of the "deadly fighter" myth and that bullshit is pretty much restricted to TCMA - CMA.

    From what you posted the proper worse case would have you practicing and training for an all out blitz attack by someone who had real skill ... not some pathetic shitbag from the UFC.
    All out blitz is one attack scenario that we work alot, but we work with others too. While I agree that there are some real **** fighters out there, even in the UFC, there are also some damned good ones. I guess it is like all crowds, you get a mix. I personally think I could fight in UFC and do well, but there are better out there too. Best I can do is work to beat the majority and hope that the minority that are better respect my ability enough to think that fighting me is not worth the chance that I might actually win.
  3. Torakaka is offline
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    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 5:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FeiLo
    But, that's why I train the eye-gouge! (and have sand in my pocket).

    But is opening a cut going to be my primary focus or would it be a side-effect of attempting the KTFO'ing? Is there a difference in competition and "street"?

    As a corrollary, Is this as much an issue in MMA as it would be in pure-striking? Assuming it was during ground-grappling and not standing at a distance.
    The idea isn't to just focus on throwing those elbows. You throw the cutting elbow when you find yourself in that range and take advantage of the situation. It's not cutting in place of KOing, it's merely an additional technique for an additional situation and will be useful for ending a fight.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  4. Jason74 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 5:19pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JFS USA- You have a private message....
  5. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 5:21pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FeiLo
    Maybe it's different for someone that trains for the majority of the day every day. For my 4-10 hours a week of training and lack of real-world fights (I like to run and hide), I think the adrenalyn-dump/depletion is going to be more of an issue than cardio.
    Make the dump your very best Friend in the whole wide World. Set it up with your buddies to play it so that you experience the dump ... do this as often as possible. The dump is pure rocket fuel and you want to become "comfortable" with the attending physiological changes.

    I love the rush as it tells me that no matter what happens ... I'm going to be okay in a relative sense of the word.
  6. Jason74 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 5:24pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kid is correct, you never really go out there with a specific plan of action, i.e. I am going to win with a right cross KO. You go out with a more general plan of trying to open a whole in the defenses and exploit it. Which hole that opens is as much a function of your offense as it is a function of their defense. If I am trying to open up a slip hook to the kidneys and the guy drops his hands, I am going to blast him in the head, not continue trying to find the kidney shot....

    So in regards to cutting, if it is there, I will take it, if not, I will continue to execute my overall plan. I love to choke, so I tend to move for the neck alot, and my set ups are along those lines. I also like to play counter fighter, I disrput with jabs and puch kicks, and wait for openings.
  7. Jason74 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 5:28pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Make the dump your very best Friend in the whole wide World. Set it up with your buddies to play it so that you experience the dump ... do this as often as possible. The dump is pure rocket fuel and you want to become "comfortable" with the attending physiological changes.

    I love the rush as it tells me that no matter what happens ... I'm going to be okay in a relative sense of the word.
    I agree, but I also prefer to try and stay calm until the dump is necessary. I used to hate suffering the dump just waiting for a fight to happen, the excitement would ramp it right up and away it would go. Was far better for me to learn to remain calm and when I needed the dump it was there, but not before. Nothing worse for me than to go through the dump and not have a fight to outlet it...

    J
  8. Jason74 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 5:29pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey some one tell JFS USA I PM'd him in case he already put me on ignore.
  9. G8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 5:31pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There was an interesting (to me, anyway) article in a recent "Grappling" magazine that pretty much validates JFS's thesis, at least in regards cardio. The authors were physiologists working in conjunction with trainers at one of the leading MMA centers (might have been Militech's, I'm not sure). Their contention, in short, was that because the body has a multi-level system for replenishing energy, cardio training that does not closely replicate the demands of a specific scenario is more or less useless--i.e. all the road work in the world will not do ****-all to improve your fight cardio; because road work involves and builds an entirely separate muscular/energy-exchange system, it will make you a better runner and help you make weight, but it won't keep you from gassing in the ring or on the mat. Instead, they advocate a fairly complex routine of intense interval training designed to resemble a real MMA fight as much as possible. I'd post a link, but I can't remember enough of the specifics to turn one up.
    As to whether it's helpful to train beyond the point of exhaustion--this may be a little off topic, inasmuch as it involves much finer motor skills than most any MA, but I've spent years playing and practicing the guitar, and most every authority will tell you (and I can affrim) that the best way to make progress as a player is to build from precise, letter-perfect movements in small increments, progressing from slow to fast only so far as you can execute the movements perfectly. Playing faster than you are capable of is absolutely counterproductive, as is playing with excess tension or fatigue. Half an hour of intense, perfect practice a day will make you better in a hurry; "playing till your fingers bleed" and you get sloppy will ingrain bad habits and insure that you don't improve. I understand the massive difference of context, but I think the same principles probably apply.

    Sorry to derail the incipient online gong sau.
  10. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 5:31pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BudoBuyu
    Whoa, the newbie has spunk!

    *gets some popcorn and waits for JFS to reply*

    This'll be good. :pain10: :angryfire
    Oh for Lucifer's sake, Man. Get a life ... go outside ... spread some chicken guts on the ground and make magic. :new_astha
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