The Fallacy of Training Machines

[FeiLo]

<snip>
Why train and work on cardio? So that you can last. I'll let some idiot thrash around blindly for 30 seconds while I cover, because after that his ass is mine until the cops show up, when I worked the clubs it was at least 5 minutes to get a beat officer on the scene, so thats four and a half minutes for me to work your ass over. Why is a 15 minute fight better to train for? Because it gives me room to work. The fallacy of your arguement is conserving energy and using lesser strikes. If given an opportunity early in the fight to end it, I will, but if I am fighting someone with some level of skill or aggression, then it might take a minute or two. It is rare to fight someone with skill in the street, but it is more common now with the popularity of UFC and such and the availability of skilled teachers out there now. I would rather prepare for the worst case scenario than the lowest common denominator.

Son of a bitch, I'm gonna double my post count today if I'm not careful.

Firstly, preaching to the choir, I don't doubt the importance of the cardio. Don't let the "Taiji" in the style field fool you, I do a few other things, MT/boxing being one of them.

As to conserving energy and using lesser strikes, that's not how I meant it and I'm still not sure I want to write another paragraph just to clarify. I meant that there should still be a focus on training the fight-ending hits/chokes/etc. Something that is easy enough to repeatedly train alive for grappling, but a bit "uncomfortable" to repeatedly train alive with strikes.

Think of my post as my attempt to flesh out part of what JFS was saying about training focus either for my own benefit or possibly for those of others and to get clarification. In other words, it was my opinion or interpretation--not meant to be unalterable fact.

Half the time we spend here seems to be all of us pointing at the same thing but typing something different. Your interpretation of my "conserving energy" comment has already made me have to adjust the phrasing to try and explain what I meant. While the re-typing sucks, the re-thinking is almost as fun as training.

[Jason74]

Son of a bitch, I'm gonna double my post count today if I'm not careful.

Firstly, preaching to the choir, I don't doubt the importance of the cardio. Don't let the "Taiji" in the style field fool you, I do a few other things, MT/boxing being one of them.

As to conserving energy and using lesser strikes, that's not how I meant it and I'm still not sure I want to write another paragraph just to clarify. I meant that there should still be a focus on training the fight-ending hits/chokes/etc. Something that is easy enough to repeatedly train alive for grappling, but a bit "uncomfortable" to repeatedly train alive with strikes.

Think of my post as my attempt to flesh out part of what JFS was saying about training focus either for my own benefit or possibly for those of others and to get clarification. In other words, it was my opinion or interpretation--not meant to be unalterable fact.

Half the time we spend here seems to be all of us pointing at the same thing but typing something different. Your interpretation of my "conserving energy" comment has already made me have to adjust the phrasing to try and explain what I meant. While the re-typing sucks, the re-thinking is almost as fun as training.

NP- I am not trying to be contentious...just clarifying...thanks for taking the time to repost.

J

[BudoBuyu]

Whoa, the newbie has spunk!

*gets some popcorn and waits for JFS to reply*

This'll be good. :pain10: :angryfire

[FeiLo]

This is interesting:
"The comment about opening cuts as a strategy fairly highlights my point. It's something I would train for if I were planning for MMA/boxing matches. It's not something that I would be as concerned about if self-defense was an issue."

Do you know WHY they stop fights for cuts? I'll give you a hint, they did it before Majic Johnson quit basketball.

Sheesh, more posts from me today than in the last few months.

I meant that opening cuts wasn't something I would be trying to accomplish (see my comment about running away). I surely didn't mean I would like to be bled on.

[JFS USA]

Street fights end quickly because there is very little skill at all involved. Having seen literally hundreds of "street fights" mostly what wins is the first person to hit, because in general, one party does not want to fight.

Yep, one person is scared and other person is glad of it. "He who gets there the firstest with the mostest wins." Grammatical abomination but pretty much true.

Hell, most of the time it is a sucker punch. Further, most fights in the street are a bully picking on an easy target, or two drunks who are stupid enough to go ahead and throw down. Usually there is alot of posturing and bullshit while they gather up their courage, then one runs forward swinging wildly and striking the other, who usually balls up and tries to get away. Its over not because one cant continue, but because one is too busy trying to escape. If both parties do want to fight, then they blow their load quickly and are too gassed to continue for more than 30 or so seconds at best.

Accurate observations.

Why train and work on cardio? So that you can last. I'll let some idiot thrash around blindly for 30 seconds while I cover, because after that his ass is mine until the cops show up, when I worked the clubs it was at least 5 minutes to get a beat officer on the scene, so thats four and a half minutes for me to work your ass over.

Never cared for that approach when I worked the doors. Too damned much gun and knife play to allow a guy to get untracked. Soft sell talk to ramp down the situation if possible ... waste him straight out if not possible.

Why is a 15 minute fight better to train for? Because it gives me room to work.

Well, let's take a good look at this for a moment. Would you not agree that a "real" fight rapidly consumes a lot of energy? Would you not agree that in a "real" fight chances are you are going to eat some shots?

Let's lump the two above together and refer to them as "system demands." Now, do a simple experiment that drops out the absorbing punishment element. Go outside and sprint all out for as long as you can. Is it anything, anything at all like 15 minutes? Go to a swimming pool ... hop in and pull out laps ... using whatever stroke you want ... as fast as you can for as long as you can. Did you last anything like 15 minutes.

When it comes to force production, and that's all we are really discussing at this time, "time or duration in the activity" is inversely proportional to pace of activity.

The fallacy of your arguement is conserving energy and using lesser strikes. If given an opportunity early in the fight to end it, I will, but if I am fighting someone with some level of skill or aggression, then it might take a minute or two.

And the metabolic energy pathways you will be using are entirely different from those the body utilizes in an activity extending out to 15 minutes. Some energy stores are depleted in a handful of seconds and some hang around for a "few" minutes. Keep in mind that your body also has to clear the byproducts of energy consumption in order for you to maintain anything like peak performace functioning.

It is rare to fight someone with skill in the street, but it is more common now with the popularity of UFC and such and the availability of skilled teachers out there now.

Hmmm ... dubious proposition at best. I've seen more than a few NFT fighters who would kill ... literally ... any and all of the UFC fighters I've seen ... up through UFC 21 ... I think. That picking peeps up, slamming them down and then playing **** around in someone's guard ... or being dependent upon a containment device to limit - restrict their opponent's mobility so a submission hold can be applied would be their death sentence.

I would rather prepare for the worst case scenario than the lowest common denominator.

Then you might want to reconsider your post. Much of what you allude to falls into the fallacy of the "deadly fighter" myth and that bullshit is pretty much restricted to TCMA - CMA.

From what you posted the proper worse case would have you practicing and training for an all out blitz attack by someone who had real skill ... not some pathetic shitbag from the UFC.

[BudoBuyu]

This is interesting:
"The comment about opening cuts as a strategy fairly highlights my point. It's something I would train for if I were planning for MMA/boxing matches. It's not something that I would be as concerned about if self-defense was an issue."

Do you know WHY they stop fights for cuts? I'll give you a hint, they did it before Majic Johnson quit basketball.

Wait, so why don't they stop the fight when someone's just bleeding, but doesn't have a open cut or something?

I've never really thought about it before.

[FeiLo]

<snip>
Well, let's take a good look at this for a moment. Would you not agree that a "real" fight rapidly consumes a lot of energy? Would you not agree that in a "real" fight chances are you are going to eat some shots?

Let's lump the two above together and refer to them as "system demands." Now, do a simple experiment that drops out the absorbing punishment element. Go outside and sprint all out for as long as you can. Is it anything, anything at all like 15 minutes? Go to a swimming pool ... hop in and pull out laps ... using whatever stroke you want ... as fast as you can for as long as you can. Did you last anything like 15 minutes.

When it comes to force production, and that's all we are really discussing at this time, "time or duration in the activity" is inversely proportional to pace of activity.
<snip>

That's pretty much what I was trying to say. See, I should have just waited a few more minutes and I wouldn't have had to have Whiteshark call me naive.

Maybe it's different for someone that trains for the majority of the day every day. For my 4-10 hours a week of training and lack of real-world fights (I like to run and hide), I think the adrenalyn-dump/depletion is going to be more of an issue than cardio.

[lawdog]

Wait, so why don't they stop the fight when someone's just bleeding, but doesn't have a open cut or something?

I've never really thought about it before.

I'll give you a clue.

Fights are stopped when one fighter is no longer able to defend himself.

[WhiteShark]

Wait, so why don't they stop the fight when someone's just bleeding, but doesn't have a open cut or something?

I've never really thought about it before.

YAY! someone read what I wrote and is thinking.

It has nothing to do with Pathogens. The goal is to open a cut on someones face preferably above the eye. This causes them to bleed into their eyes or their facial tissue around the eye swells. Both result in the same goal, a blinded fighter.

Muay Thai has several elbow techniques specifically for cutting the scalp above the eyes and blinding the opponent quickly.

They stop fights when you bleed into your eyes because you can't see **** and you will be KTFO in short order.

[FeiLo]

YAY! someone read what I wrote and is thinking.

It has nothing to do with Pathogens. The goal is to open a cut on someones face preferably above the eye. This causes them to bleed into their eyes or their facial tissue around the eye swells. Both result in the same goal, a blinded fighter.

Muay Thai has several elbow techniques specifically for cutting the scalp above the eyes and blinding the opponent quickly.

They stop fights when you bleed into your eyes because you can't see **** and you will be KTFO in short order.

But, that's why I train the eye-gouge! (and have sand in my pocket).

But is opening a cut going to be my primary focus or would it be a side-effect of attempting the KTFO'ing? Is there a difference in competition and "street"?

As a corrollary, Is this as much an issue in MMA as it would be in pure-striking? Assuming it was during ground-grappling and not standing at a distance.