The Fallacy of Training Machines

[JFS USA]

This thread is dedicated to debunking the uber bullshit surrounding training machines and/or devices associated with MA.

Some of the more commonly encountered training devices are the heavy bag, the speed bag, the double ended ball and the totally retarded wooden dummy, in all its various forms, largely associated with Wing Chun and Choy Li Fut.

Definition of Terms:

Training = Protocols or regimens designed to address the "raw elements" of the Human Condition, e.g., Cardio-Vascular work, functional strength work (weight training), etc.

Practice = Skill Set specific work, e.g., refining and smoothing out the foot - hand - eye coordination associated with entering or withdrawing and either striking, grappling, or covering.

As a general rule, practice and training should be kept separate with the addition that practice should mostly be engaged in when physically and mentally fresh. As practice is, according to the definition above, directly involved in the honing of specific skills, weapons or tools, practicing only when fresh insures that the neurological pathways (body knowledge) associated with a specific skill will be the most advantageous when fully grooved.

Perfect practice makes perfect ... practice in of itself just makes sweat.

Mindlessly engaging in rote physical activity will not produce the desired outcome.

A couple of guiding tenets will be repeatedly cited to in this thread and the readers should be at least somewhat familiar with them in order to make sense of future material.

S.A. I.D. = Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand(s). This means that in response to, or exposure to, a stimulus, be it resistance weight work, or interval sprint training, etc., the Human Condition will undergo a "specific" adaptation and said adaptation is unique to both the stimulus and the individual.

Repeatedly engaging in swimming will not result in improving your running ability. Playing a lot of Badminton will not improve your Tennis game.

However, there is a fair amount of generalized "truisms" associated with any given stimulus. By way of example, repeated bouts of sprint interval work will "generally" produce adaptive responses that fall within certain parameters. It is the degree of adaptation that is highly individualistic.

The Specificity Principle: Best defined as "Close is often times not close enough." Approximations of the target activity tend to have very little transference to the target activity proper.

The above has been repeatedly demonstrated by the training - practice protocols utilized during the mid to late 1960s US Olympic Teams as well as a number of Professional Sports Teams, most notably Professional Basketball.

There is an interesting phenomena associated with approximations, typically in MA referred to as "drills" and when presented it will run counter-intuitive. However, the "truth" regarding drills is in fact the truth. Namely, drills tend to be far more counter-productive than assistive in nature. I'll provide the rationale for this being the case at some future point in time.

The majority of what I present in this thread will slaughter a **** load of "Sacred Cows" and I'll state from the get go that I'm not attempting to convert anyone or convince anyone of anything.

I suggest the readers consider what is presented with a reasonably open Mind as it is understood from the start that people will ultimately do as they so desire. Run down blind alleys and smash your skull into the brick wall at the end if you choose ... it is, after all, your life.

[Cullion]

Question: Lots of people suggest working the heavy bag for rounds to train stamina. Is there a danger that this would worsen your punching technique (by getting you to practice punches whilst tiredness is making your technique sloppy) ?

[Dusty Larson]

Pretty much, practice exactly what you intend to do?

A question though...for proper practice for hand to hand, it is suggested that the speed is worked at either 1/2 or 2/3 RW speed, and apparently transfers well when it comes to full RW speed. But, would it not be best to practice RW speed from the start so the human form adapts to that imposed activity? Or would that just end up falling into the endurance drills that are counter-productive to the desired results?

[JFS USA]

Question: Lots of people suggest working the heavy bag for rounds to train stamina. Is there a danger that this would worsen your punching technique (by getting you to practice punches whilst tiredness is making your technique sloppy) ?

Go to any Boxing Gym and watch a Noob working on the heavy bag with real vigor.

See how his shoulder continues to open up as he fatigues? See how the arcs become ever more pronounced? See how the earlier smooth transition of his weight into his punches degrades to a kind of jerky hopping movement?

Does this answer your question?

[JFS USA]

Pretty much, practice exactly what you intend to do?

Makes sense, doesn't it? Why do the think the TCMA - CMA Form Faries can't fight to save their own life? Hmm ... because they don't fight?

A question though...for proper practice for hand to hand, it is suggested that the speed is worked at either 1/2 or 2/3 RW speed, and apparently transfers well when it comes to full RW speed. But, would it not be best to practice RW speed from the start so the human form adapts to that imposed activity?

You're getting ahead of me, Dusty. You are also blending practice and training. The slower preformance speed allows the body to stay in the movement pattern longer.

Hence the groove or grooves associated with the movement(s) are more deeply burned in and most importantly the proper or most advantageous groove(s) is/are created ... entrained.

Or would that just end up falling into the endurance drills that are counter-productive to the desired results?

I don't single out "endurance" when discussing the many faults associated with drills. This is something I'll pick up later.

[BSDaemon]

As a general rule, practice and training should be kept separate

Bullshit. If your “practice” isn’t improving your strength and conditioning in the process there is something wrong with the methods you are training with.

practice should mostly be engaged in when physically and mentally fresh

Bullshit. Are you telling me I shouldn’t be ‘digging deep’ and ‘pushing my cardio ‘wall’ while “practicing” a martial art? Because for me those times are when I feel I’ve learned the most.... The never say die warrior spirit.

practicing only when fresh insures that the neurological pathways (body knowledge) associated with a specific skill will be the most advantageous when fully grooved.

I happen to know a thing or two about neurophysiology. Using PET scans it has been shown that the level of brain activity required for an untrained skill is much greater than the brain activity for a learned skill. So when you’re doing something you’re not used to your brain is going through a storm of electrical activity. When it is doing something it is skilled at it fires a single neurological pathway, which is much quicker and more efficient.

Now the reason I think you need to practice through physical and mental exhaustion is that it puts your mind into a state where it does not have a ready supply of energy to really think about an unlearned action, instead you resort to the established pathway of your developing skill, and you reinforce it.

Sure you should learn something for the first time while your fresh, but if you really want to practice it you need to take that knowledge and push your limits with it. Do you give up half way through your class because you are physically or mentally tired? Hell no; you keep going.

[JFS USA]

Bullshit. If your “practice” isn’t improving your strength and conditioning in the process there is something wrong with the methods you are training with.

Very well ... your proof is what?

Bullshit. Are you telling me I shouldn’t be ‘digging deep’ and ‘pushing my cardio ‘wall’ while “practicing” a martial art? Because for me those times are when I feel I’ve learned the most.... The never say die warrior spirit.

I'm telling you nothing ... you know it all so why should I bother?

Warrior Spirit? Interesting, I'm ex-US Army, ODA 735, A Co., 1st Bn., 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne). Awarded the Bronze Star with Victory Device for exceptional valor while in real World modern day combat. Yet "you" feel free and on equal footing to raise the banner of "Warrior Spirit" to me. Care you reconsider your out-burst?

I happen to know a thing or two about neurophysiology. Using PET scans it has been shown that the level of brain activity required for an untrained skill is much greater than the brain activity for a learned skill. So when you’re doing something you’re not used to your brain is going through a storm of electrical activity. When it is doing something it is skilled at it fires a single neurological pathway, which is much quicker and more efficient.

Exactly, hence my caveat regarding mindless rote reptitions. What you cite to also has been used in the past to validate "imagery" and "visualization" practice ... good stuff.

Now the reason I think you need to practice through physical and mental exhaustion is that it puts your mind into a state where it does not have a ready supply of energy to really think about an unlearned action, instead you resort to the established pathway of your developing skill, and you reinforce it.

Makes perfect sense from a "reasonable person" perspective but it's not the case at all. What happens is the body will scrounge around and find any and all non-exhausted muscle fibers that can approximate the desired movement and fire them.

From a mental perspective I think you are correct in that it is of real value to "Go deep into the Well." a few times. Doing so allows a person to negate the negative emotions associated with not knowing ... the doubts ... and it also affirms that "Yes, that really sucked, but I made it through."

Our quarterly Re-Certification 20 mile Force Marches were much like that. Often times guys who really weren't in stellar physical condition made it in accordance with the imposed EIB Standards through shear force of Will ... "mental toughness" is another way of expressing it. They had "been there" before and knew what to expect - anticipate. Embrace the pain.

Sure you should learn something for the first time while your fresh, but if you really want to practice it you need to take that knowledge and push your limits with it. Do you give up half way through your class because you are physically or mentally tired? Hell no; you keep going.

I've been walking this Path for over 4 decades. For the most part, each and every time I "do" something it is as if for the very first time. Old Southern saying: "When you think you are ripe ... you are rotten."

I am the eternal Student as for me it is the journey and not the destination that is most exciting. Getting "there" just seems kind of anti-climatic to me. Travel as you Will.

[Xiangfei]

The dummy's for ensuring correct positioning, little else. Arm conditioning, perhaps. Is that a totally retarded use, or has someone been claiming it gave them magical powers or something?

[CanucKyokushin]

Ok you say that through your years of traning you've found that bag work is useless improving .So that leaves only pad work left.

Which just so happens to be a more concentrated (ie.tougher ) training that can be used to improve fighting ability.IMO.

[JFS USA]

The dummy's for ensuring correct positioning, little else. Arm conditioning, perhaps. Is that a totally retarded use, or has someone been claiming it gave them magical powers or something?

Well, let's take a look at it from a purely rational perspective.

Correct positioning against what? In what reasonable manner does a fixed in space wood arm represent a dynamically extending or retracting Human limb? Of what value is a fixed limb that presents none of the visual cues attending a "live" limb? What can possibly transfer to the target activity ... engaging a live limb, by way of sensory feedback ... feel when contacting wood with no joints whatsoever?

How does the fixed balance point of a wooden structure (the dummy body) in any fashion represent the feel upon contact with a Human limb? Keep in mind that when "static" the Human Form has a balance point roughly in plane with the Earth and at about the level of the navel. When moving the Human Form's balance point shifts to about mid-chest level and in plane with the Earth.

Arm conditioning? Why not 3 Star Block and get not only the correct sensory feedback upon contact, but also get exposure to making contact with something that is moving through space? Your partner is also experiencing contact conditioning. If it's primarily a matter of contact conditioning then why not use a tree or telephone pole?