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  1. NSLightsOut is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 7:19pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by garbanzobean
    Yeah, I see your point. I was referring to them from sort of an inflexible perspective. In some ways, they bypass normal logic that would dictate getting to a stereotypical safe position then subbing from there.

    In reality, they are just a part of the game that is often ignored or marginalized. I think that's probably what makes them so interesting to a lot of people.
    Sometimes leg locks do come in handy, simply because they 'do bypass normal logic' (I like that phrase. Mind if I misappropriate it?) I've lately been finding that knee bars from guard work really well on a couple of appallingly strong opponents who like standing to pass guard for precisely that very reason. The last thing they expect is me going inverted to wrap my body around their leg while effectively supporting myself on my head.

    I prefer to be unconventionally opportunistic. I don't see leg locks in themselves as being 'unconventional'
  2. Grant is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 7:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: MT, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    FighterJones, what environment are you applying heel hooks in?

    Wrestling class? JJJ? Or just rolling with friends?
  3. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 7:50pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NSLightsOut
    Sometimes leg locks do come in handy, simply because they 'do bypass normal logic' (I like that phrase. Mind if I misappropriate it?) I've lately been finding that knee bars from guard work really well on a couple of appallingly strong opponents who like standing to pass guard for precisely that very reason. The last thing they expect is me going inverted to wrap my body around their leg while effectively supporting myself on my head.

    I prefer to be unconventionally opportunistic. I don't see leg locks in themselves as being 'unconventional'
    By all means, take it and abuse it.

    I like your style with opportunism, as well. Makes a lot of sense. I tend to go for a a lot of sweeps (omoplata, v sweep, and star sweep are all favorites of mine here) if people stand up in my guard, but I'm also one of those big strong guys you mentioned. Maybe I'll work knee bars in there as well.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  4. JohnnyS is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 11:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I personally only use leg-locks when doing no-gi because there are less opportunities to get other submissions. I rarely even do them from inside the guard anymore, because against a good guy you can give up your position and end up underneath. I mostly go for them from side control, knee-ride or when someone is in my guard.

    I think they're definately worth working on and I used to do them a lot in the past, but they're no longer a focus for me because when going for a leg-lock against someone good I am most likely to end up in a leg lock battle, whereas when going for a choke or armlock the guy isn't just as likely to end up getting MY neck or arm.
  5. FighterJones is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 9:26am


     Style: LARPing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Grant, occasionally when I'm showing other buddies who do other MA's, in wrestling after class sometimes i'll goof around with my coach, but I don't go for heel hooks cause he's got a bad knee I think.
    and yes, of course in CJJ.
    CANADIAN JIU JITSU! :P (what I call it, its just shindo jiu jitsu)
    Really its just MMA with ground work being a mix of judo and BJJ
    thanks for all the replys guys, and i'll keep it in mind.
  6. J-Lau is offline
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    UFC Fighter

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 10:27am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA, No-Gi Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    These are all in ideal situations... and I have done many heelhooks abandoning some or even all of these guidelines.

    Key to the hellhook is making the back of their leg an acute angle. (Closed more than 90 degrees... whereas when its straight their leg is 180 degrees or there abuts). You really do want that deep bend so they cant turn, otherwise you both end up rolling all over. Control their thigh with your legs... and use your hips to ge the bend that you want. Learn the leglace so you can control them better, and keep yourself safe.

    Learn the proper way to roll to defend the heelhook because they have it sunk... if you roll the wrong way you will tear your own knee, and if you let them sink you, you are done for and wont be able to roll anyways.

    Be ready for people to make the above mistake about rolling the wrong way, and be ready to realease the heel hook in case they do... you do NOT want to injure your training partners... even if they are ignorant and "hurt themselves".

    Hook with your wrist, not your elbow. Use the palm to palm grip, and make sure the arm thats hooking is on the top. Keep your elbows in, and turn your upper body... use this twisting of your body to apply the torque.... as opposed to using your arms. Using your body makes it tighter, and mroe secure, and gives you a greater range to twist the knee.
  7. J-Lau is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 10:46am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA, No-Gi Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    The best way to defend against a heel hook is to pop up in the air and spin 360 degress in either direction regardless of how deep the hold is or the integrity of various leg joints.
    You're being a smartass... but I'd edit that before someone remembers one part of that and doesnt realise, and tears their ACL.

    EDIT: Much better.
    Last edited by J-Lau; 11/28/2005 11:12am at .
  8. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 11:41am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    On a related note, I think that more instructers should teach white belts about these things. I see a lot of people **** around in their leg lock defense and get their **** popped.
    I'd like to think that people would avoid playing with leg locks too much until they had some idea of what they were doing period, but far too many people seem to want to jump into them headfirst or ignore them completely.

    I agree that leg lock defenses should be taught fairly early. Mostly, I think people should just not be idiots when they are training and tap if someone has them in a hold they don't know how to defend.

    God forbid I ever end up teaching grappling somewhere, but if it happens someday in the (extremely) distant future, I will require new students to come in for a private chat before they actually train. This chat will include video footage showing people getting their **** fucked up from submissions and a long talk about being careful and controlled with your training partners.
  9. FighterJones is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 1:10pm


     Style: LARPing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    thanks tons Joe!
    I'll definately have my instructor go over that stuff with me and the like, but do you have any pointers for the small minute but important details for the leg lace?
    thanks
  10. J-Lau is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 1:25pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA, No-Gi Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dont get caught up in details for now
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