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  1. FighterJones is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 12:56pm


     Style: LARPing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Heel Hook

    WARNING: I AM EXTREMELY INARTICULATE WHEN DESCRIBING STUFF.


    So this being one of my favorite subs, and one that I want to excel at, so I figured instead of just doing shitloads of research and just me learnin, why not make a thread about it, I figure why not make a bunch of these with other submissions in the future, but for now I'm a just starting this one.

    I like to do this mainly from two positions, one is when I'm in someones gaurd, I just lean back, break his gaurd open and fall back for an achillies, but instead of locking the ankle lock on, I twist to my side in the direction towards their other leg to position their leg right(For me,the twisting is one of the most vital parts in order to set this up, don't just yank the heel then turn, in my experience this makes it easier) , then twist only my body back abit, in which I trap the heel and lock it on.

    the other one is when they mount me or have sloppy knee on belly.
    for when i'm mounted, I just elbow escape one side, then kind do a little roll and back getting their leg for the heel hook, for the sloppy knee on belly, I like to grab the knee on me behind it, then do a little roll setting the heel hook position on then cranking it again.



    Links for other info and stuff.

    Heel hooks
    http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=35
    http://www.bjj.org/techniques/cesar/sub5/ (this is kinda like the one I'm describing above)
    http://www.leglocks.com/new_page_1.htm (this has some stuff on it)

    Variations
    http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=383


    Guys just post more info, tips on how to make a heel hook better, more intricate details about it, all that stuff.
    Last edited by FighterJones; 11/27/2005 1:06pm at .
  2. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 1:52pm

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FighterJones
    WARNING: I AM EXTREMELY INARTICULATE WHEN DESCRIBING STUFF.


    So this being one of my favorite subs, and one that I want to excel at, so I figured instead of just doing shitloads of research and just me learnin, why not make a thread about it, I figure why not make a bunch of these with other submissions in the future, but for now I'm a just starting this one.

    I like to do this mainly from two positions, one is when I'm in someones gaurd, I just lean back, break his gaurd open and fall back for an achillies, but instead of locking the ankle lock on, I twist to my side in the direction towards their other leg to position their leg right(For me,the twisting is one of the most vital parts in order to set this up, don't just yank the heel then turn, in my experience this makes it easier) , then twist only my body back abit, in which I trap the heel and lock it on.

    the other one is when they mount me or have sloppy knee on belly.
    for when i'm mounted, I just elbow escape one side, then kind do a little roll and back getting their leg for the heel hook, for the sloppy knee on belly, I like to grab the knee on me behind it, then do a little roll setting the heel hook position on then cranking it again.



    Links for other info and stuff.

    Heel hooks
    http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=35
    http://www.bjj.org/techniques/cesar/sub5/ (this is kinda like the one I'm describing above)
    http://www.leglocks.com/new_page_1.htm (this has some stuff on it)

    Variations
    http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=383


    Guys just post more info, tips on how to make a heel hook better, more intricate details about it, all that stuff.
    A year of Sombo does not make me an expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt, however, we focused a lot on controlling the leg. You left that out of your description.

    We control the leg with our legs, by squeezing it between them, just like you use your legs to control the arm with a basic juji gatame.
  3. FighterJones is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 2:43pm


     Style: LARPing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very true lawdog, I did leave that out.
    The reason I want to get good at leg locks is not just that I like them, but I view them as the trump card, or ace or jack, whatever it is.
  4. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 2:54pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    I used to fancy ass leg locks like that, but I found myself losing position all the damn time so I stopped and worked on fundamentals.
    Yeah, I agree with that. I never liked leg locks much (my original instructor hated them, so I mostly ignored them until I found a few that I really like. I still don't use them all that much, though.

    The only thing that worries me about heel hooks is when they are applied by an overly enthusiastic training partner. A lot of people seem to rely on speed and power when applying leg locks (heel hooks especially) instead of good control of the opponent's legs, and that seems to me to be a recipe for injury.

    We have a couple new guys that constantly want to go for heel hooks instead of working on position, and they've managed to crank each other's knees pretty bad a few times from doing a sloppy heel hook. It seems to me that a good leg lock curriculum is important after you start to understand the basics, but before that, it can be more harmful than good.

    Basically, my point of view is that heel hooks and other leg locks are pretty damn useful tools after you've got plenty of time on the mats and have shown yourself to be a careful training partner. I really don't mind my training partners going for all kinds of nasty **** on me as long as I know them well enough to trust that they won't get out of control.

    Not knocking you here FighterJones, as I've never rolled with you and have very little idea of your skill level, but just throwing my two cents into the thread.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  5. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 2:57pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FighterJones
    Very true lawdog, I did leave that out.
    The reason I want to get good at leg locks is not just that I like them, but I view them as the trump card, or ace or jack, whatever it is.
    They definitely can be a wild card and a bit of an equalizer, but then again they can blow up in your face pretty easily as well. They do seem to be a bit of a fad right now in BJJ circles, at least. I guess it's because the old guard leg lock haters are finally shutting their mouths about them.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  6. FighterJones is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 3:45pm


     Style: LARPing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Garbanzo you have a very good point and I agree with you.
    Like I said, I like them but I want to get good at them for a trump card.
    One Pro fighter said to me the gyst of, "Don't go for leg locks in training, (he gets em all the time in fights tho) I stopped goin for em and my gaurd passing got WAY better. do the same"
    So my goal is to get em down pat tight, then concentrate on my gaurd passing.
    that way for my fights, I can use it as a wild card, or go straight for em if they are shitty grapplers.
  7. roly is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 5:07pm


     Style: judo, karate, jap jj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i'm with osiris on this one, get your positional game solid (read:almost perfect) before leglocks/heelhooks. and no matter what you decide to do in the end, be REALLY careful doing them. leglocks/heelhooks can screw up someone for life
  8. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 6:27pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by roly
    i'm with osiris on this one, get your positional game solid (read:almost perfect) before leglocks/heelhooks. and no matter what you decide to do in the end, be REALLY careful doing them. leglocks/heelhooks can screw up someone for life
    I don't know about almost perfect, but you should definitely have a good idea of what you're doing at all the basic positions. That's pretty subjective and probably the call of your coach moreso than anyone else.

    I definitely would focus on guard passing and become proficient at that WAAAAY before I would focus on heel hooks and other leg locks, though.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  9. NSLightsOut is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 6:28pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by garbanzobean
    They definitely can be a wild card and a bit of an equalizer, but then again they can blow up in your face pretty easily as well. They do seem to be a bit of a fad right now in BJJ circles, at least. I guess it's because the old guard leg lock haters are finally shutting their mouths about them.
    This is one thing I've always tended to disagree with: The concept of leg locks as a wild card or 'equalizer'.

    They're really not.

    Think about it. ceteris parabus, you may catch an opponent with a leg lock when he/she was least expecting it. On a more experienced fighter, maybe on an opportunistic basis. On a less experienced fighter, you should be able to catch with most of your arsenal.

    Now, the first two examples were opportunism personified. An approach that can be successfully used for any submission, not just leg locks. In the second example, it's often going to be a one-off submission, that you are extremely unlikely to repeat.

    In addition, heel hooks are dangerous when performed by comparatively inexperienced people. As I type this, I'm reminded by the twinge in my left knee, caused by a white belt's heel hook nearly three years ago, that has never really healed up. According to the physio who fixed my knee up after that incident, I came within a hair's breadth of requiring a MCL reconstruction.

    Personally, with the choice between a better heel hook and a better guard pass, I'd take the guard pass every time.
  10. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2005 7:06pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NSLightsOut
    This is one thing I've always tended to disagree with: The concept of leg locks as a wild card or 'equalizer'.

    They're really not.
    Yeah, I see your point. I was referring to them from sort of an inflexible perspective. In some ways, they bypass normal logic that would dictate getting to a stereotypical safe position then subbing from there.

    In reality, they are just a part of the game that is often ignored or marginalized. I think that's probably what makes them so interesting to a lot of people.

    And yeah, passing the guard trumps leg locks just about every single time in my book, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    I only get leg locks on people who go the other way and UNDER value them. On people who are aware of their legs, they're not equalizers at all and work like any other sub.
    Yeah, that was sort of the perspective I was thinking of at the time, but I didn't consider the second half of it. Very good point.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
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