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  1. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2005 8:03pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...fighterid=1815

    Hmmm.... Not that wins and losses equate to everything, but I'd check them out pretty thoroughly.
  2. PollyR is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/22/2005 9:33pm


     Style: Seido karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by seeker of truth
    Seido...as in the awesome offshoot of kyokushin...

    http://www.seido.com/01_about_seido/kaicho.htm

    I think you'll probably get what you want and much more from this style...

    Well, Seeker, I think you are right. I went to observe a kumite class tonight and was very impressed. It was full contact sparring (it actually looked like kickboxing more than karate). The sensei explained the style and how it's an offshoot kyokushin. It sounds really good, so I'm going to take a trial class next week and then probably sign up. There are no contracts and you pay month by month. I won't be doing any kumite until I'm a high yellow belt (those are the rules) but that's OK with me. I'd rather learn the basics and then get into the sparring when I actually know what I'm doing. Thanks!
  3. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    11/22/2005 9:37pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll echo that. The Seido schools I've seen are impressive.
  4. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2005 7:20am


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PollyR
    Well, Seeker, I think you are right. I went to observe a kumite class tonight and was very impressed. It was full contact sparring (it actually looked like kickboxing more than karate). The sensei explained the style and how it's an offshoot kyokushin. It sounds really good, so I'm going to take a trial class next week and then probably sign up. There are no contracts and you pay month by month. I won't be doing any kumite until I'm a high yellow belt (those are the rules) but that's OK with me. I'd rather learn the basics and then get into the sparring when I actually know what I'm doing. Thanks!
    Sounds like a nice school.
  5. PirateJon is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/23/2005 10:44am

    supporting member
     Style: MT/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's the same school? Damn, he needs to replace that crappy site with something decent.
  6. Vile is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/23/2005 8:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushin, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Seido-Juku details

    First off (PN5000, Odacon, Ryno) don't hassle the poses - those are either kata (I see kaka dachi likely from Pinan sono yon in one pose) or demonstrations, not sparring. The Junior Blackbelts are the result of 4-6 years training, and have to retest, including their 40 full contact fights once they reach 16 or 18 depending on local legislation. Its not given lightly, and they are not generally allowed to teach classes. I've seen broken noses and ribs at at Seido, so the sparring is hard. Nakamura isn't someone to hassle - read on for background - he is more than entitled to call himself Kaicho.

    Okay, Seido is a style with a good foundation. Nakamura was a 7th Dan before leaving Kyokushin to found Seido and was Oyama's heir apparent at the time.
    He fought and knocked out a Thai champion called Tan Salen "The Green Tiger" as one of the three Kyokushin fighters who went to Tahiland in response to the Muay Thai challenge in the 1960s.
    He fought a lot of challenge matches in the USA when he established himself in New York. He had a reputation for haivng a temper - he was pulled off one walk in challenger in the Honbu in Japan as the guy was bleeding from the eyes and Nakamura wasn't stopping - it takes a lot before Senseis and Senpais will physically restrain a Shihan. Nakamura was the real deal.

    Here is where it falls down. After being shot (alledgedly by yakuza interests within the Kyokushinkai) Nakamura seems to have become somewhat of a pacifist. The style pushed sparring back to 6th/4th kyu start depending on the branch. They also do not allow kicking to the thigh in sparring and wear bag mits and foot pads when sparring (some schools are smart enough to offer sparring without the pads and to teach low roundhouse kicks although usually only at Dan grades). Nakamura's Sedio is, in essence a lot closer to Goju than Kyokushin - he has tried to make the style more "Japanese" and less of the fluid integration of Japanese, Korean, Chinese and Thai elements that gradually occured within Kyokushin (Kyokushin has its own issues, but they are different from Seido).

    I trained Seido for 4 years. It was a great way to learn basic technique and kata, but, on transeferring to Kyokushin I got my ass handed to me by people 6 months into their training. Bluntly, Seido will eat most non Kyokushin derived Karate styles for breakfast. They allow cross training and fight full contact (albeit with more padding and tighter rules than Kyokushin) but they DON'T produce fighters of the same standard as the focus isn't as strictly on fighting.

    Most Seido karate-ka will tell stories about Kyokushin having lost the true spirit of Karate and become too brutal. Revisionist history. The best description I ahve heard (from a Seido nidan) about Kyokushin derived styles vs tradtional Japanese styles is that trad styles are about the gloss, KK derived styles are about the grunt.

    Due to the delay in sparring (remember that Yellow comes after Blue and before Green in KK type styles so is actually a higher grade than it seems) a lot of people can train there for a year or two and still not know how to hit or take a hit. There are self defense implications on training in a full contact style for 2 years and not having sparred.

    To sum up - if there are good Kyokushin schools in your area (or Seidokan - different group who started K1, also a KK derivative, or Shidokan, or World Oyama Karate etc etc) you will see pretty much the same thing as you saw at Seido but the fighting side is better so go there instead. If there aren't, and you are prepared to devote at least 18 months before your fighting skills get practical resisted alive sparring work, Seido is a good option. If the school has fight classes or kickboxing as well it will do a lot to alleviate their weaknesses, or, alternatively if they put a lot of fighters to kyokushin tournaments it will help too.

    It produces Karate-ka who can actually fight. It just takes too long to introduce sparring, and doesn't teach people how to use or defend thigh kicks.

    All KK and derivative fighters look a lot more like MT when they fight than traditional Karate styles. Partly because they focus on full contact rather than tappy tappy points **** and partly because they learned a lot from MT by accepting and fighting challenges against MT fighters. They do have points and clicker tournaments though for those who are interested (or under 18).

    Some have done well in KK tournaments, most get killed as their conditioning is often not as good and the low kick problem really starts to show.

    It is also a little more McDojoish than KK - still at the bottom of the scale, but you can feel the American cultural influence in the instruction. I can't speak for the USA< but here a small Seido club has 100+ members, usually about 50/50 male/female and 50/50 adult/children. Big clubs have 500+ members. Class sizes are often huge and they often have limits on the senior grades attending junior classes so you may have one or two instructor level people for 30-40 students. To contrast that with Kyokushin, a big club is 50-100 people, the biggest class I have been to was 12 people and that includes usually 1-3 addtional instructor level peole on top of the guy taking the class.

    My opinion in brief:
    Kyokushin > Seido > Traditional Japanese Karate
    Of course this depends on the individual dojo.
    CAUTION: Seido and Kyokushin in general DOES NOT teach any effective ground fighting or grappling. If they say they do, ask detailed questions - unless they share space with another club or are teaching outside the core curriculum they are going to show you the normal **** karate ground and grappling work. Most of them don't even know what a sprawl is.
    Sociopaths are people too.
  7. PollyR is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2005 11:02pm


     Style: Seido karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Vile, Thanks for the info and history. It's nice to hear from someone who knows what he's talking about.

    I'll respond below....


    Quote Originally Posted by Vile
    Here is where it falls down. After being shot (alledgedly by yakuza interests within the Kyokushinkai) Nakamura seems to have become somewhat of a pacifist. The style pushed sparring back to 6th/4th kyu start depending on the branch. They also do not allow kicking to the thigh in sparring and wear bag mits and foot pads when sparring (some schools are smart enough to offer sparring without the pads and to teach low roundhouse kicks although usually only at Dan grades). Nakamura's Sedio is, in essence a lot closer to Goju than Kyokushin - he has tried to make the style more "Japanese" and less of the fluid integration of Japanese, Korean, Chinese and Thai elements that gradually occured within Kyokushin (Kyokushin has its own issues, but they are different from Seido).

    The Shihan told me sparring at his dojo starts at advanced yellow belt, but at other Seido dojos, it's starts at green. In the kumite class I saw, they were wearing headgear, boxing gloves and foot pads and they were all brown or black belts. It was an advanced class though so I don't know how a lower level kumite class would be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vile
    Most Seido karate-ka will tell stories about Kyokushin having lost the true spirit of Karate and become too brutal. Revisionist history. The best description I ahve heard (from a Seido nidan) about Kyokushin derived styles vs tradtional Japanese styles is that trad styles are about the gloss, KK derived styles are about the grunt.
    The Shihan I spoke to told me that Kyokushin was becoming too brutal and could only be practiced by the young and strong. Nakamura did not agree with this and felt that karate should be for everyone (even the handicapped), and that was one reason why he broke off from KK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vile
    Due to the delay in sparring (remember that Yellow comes after Blue and before Green in KK type styles so is actually a higher grade than it seems) a lot of people can train there for a year or two and still not know how to hit or take a hit. There are self defense implications on training in a full contact style for 2 years and not having sparred.
    That's OK with me though because I'm not looking to be a great fighter. I'm too old for that at 39. I am attracted to the spiritual side of Seido that you don't seem to get in the other styles. I know a lot of people on Bullshido think that's all BS, but the older you get, the more spiritual stuff seems important. I didn't care about that at all when I was 25, but I do now. Anyway, I figure I can try Seido for 6 months or so and see what I think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vile
    To sum up - if there are good Kyokushin schools in your area (or Seidokan - different group who started K1, also a KK derivative, or Shidokan, or World Oyama Karate etc etc) you will see pretty much the same thing as you saw at Seido but the fighting side is better so go there instead. If there aren't, and you are prepared to devote at least 18 months before your fighting skills get practical resisted alive sparring work, Seido is a good option. If the school has fight classes or kickboxing as well it will do a lot to alleviate their weaknesses, or, alternatively if they put a lot of fighters to kyokushin tournaments it will help too.
    My first choice was KK, but I couldn't find a school in my area. Most of the schools where I live are either TKD or McDojos. This Seido school is the only one I've been to that seemed like the real deal. No, they don't have any kickboxing or grappling and I agree that's a drawback, but not much I can do about it. I was training at TSK (Tiger Schulmann--a big McDojo here on the east coast US) and they offered kickboxing and grappling, but wouldn't allow beginners to take those classes. You had to take a certain number of classes before you could do that. There is a BJJ and kickboxing place near me so I might check that out and see if I can afford to do both Seido and BJJ/kickboxing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vile
    It is also a little more McDojoish than KK - still at the bottom of the scale, but you can feel the American cultural influence in the instruction. I can't speak for the USA< but here a small Seido club has 100+ members, usually about 50/50 male/female and 50/50 adult/children. Big clubs have 500+ members. Class sizes are often huge and they often have limits on the senior grades attending junior classes so you may have one or two instructor level people for 30-40 students. To contrast that with Kyokushin, a big club is 50-100 people, the biggest class I have been to was 12 people and that includes usually 1-3 addtional instructor level peole on top of the guy taking the class.
    I think this dojo is small, but I haven't seen a full class yet so I don't know. I'm going to go on Monday and take a trial beginner class so I'll report back then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vile
    My opinion in brief:
    Kyokushin > Seido > Traditional Japanese Karate
    Of course this depends on the individual dojo.
    CAUTION: Seido and Kyokushin in general DOES NOT teach any effective ground fighting or grappling. If they say they do, ask detailed questions - unless they share space with another club or are teaching outside the core curriculum they are going to show you the normal **** karate ground and grappling work. Most of them don't even know what a sprawl is.
    I think that's what TSK was teaching. I'd rather go to a BJJ school and learn the real way to do it.

    Well, thanks for sharing your opinion. I appreciate it.
  8. Vile is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/23/2005 11:35pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushin, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No worries PollyR.

    If you aren't interested in the hardcore fighting aspect but still want transferable skills then Seido could be the way to go for you. They do have a lot of good events and some decent international presence.

    The boxing gloves sounds encouraging mainly becuase it implies they work head punches in sparring - something KK would do well to implement.

    I'd disagree with Kyokushin being only for the young and strong, but maybe only for the people who are prepared to take a lot of damage while learning their style. If you lack a fairly hefty masochistic streak KK is probably a bit too much - at least to start with. Having said that there is still some interaction between Seido and Kyokushin as a lot of the more senior instructors trained together before the split. Seido is certainly a good grounding in technique, and like in KK the instructors tend to know that kata is a physical exercise and a way of improving balance and body mechanics and/or a form of moving meditation rather than a way of teaching people to fight.

    I don't regret my time at Seido.

    If the instructor is bringing in sparring earlier that is a good sign. See if they offer sparring classes that include thigh kicks as well - also a good sing, but generally (for Seido) only offered to balck belts or close to that level.

    I've been to camps with two of the American shihans from Seido - Charles Martin and William Olliver. Both awesome, very strong and understand the practical side or their technique. They were the number 2 and 3 men in the world for Seido at that time. New Zealand is lucky to have the number 4 and 5 men (or they were) Andy Barber and Renzie Hanham. I've had a training session with Nakamura, but it was so crowded that we couldn't really move (only one he had done here for nearly a decade). Shihan Sana isn't a familiar name to me, but that doesn't mean much - its been nearly a decade and I am on the other side of the world.

    You could certainly do a lot worse, and the fact that the Shihan gave Nakamura's reasoning for leaving KK rather than just bagging it (not that I would expect that from Seido but you get it from other styles) shows that he is likely to more open aproach to the martial arts than some.

    At teh very least since they don't require a contract you can train as long as you want without needing to worry if you decide you don't like it or need something else. Get used to press ups and yelling OSU. :toothy9:
    Sociopaths are people too.
  9. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2005 1:58am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The web site made it looked a little Bullshidoish, though friendly enough with all ages and races, which I liked, but I thought that I remembered Seido and googled it, and sure enough, Nakamura, the founder trained under Miyagi (Goju) and Oyama and was a Kyokushin tourney champ. He taught KK for several years in NYC, then " respectfully withdrew from Kyokushin Karate. The same year, he established the World Seido Karate Organization, which reflected his own beliefs about the true meaning of karate. Nakamura created Seido--which means "sincere way" in Japanese--to develop complete individuals, ones committed to improving themselves and their communities. With the principles of love, respect, and obedience as the foundation of Seido Karate, Nakamura ensured that his students would develop spiritually and morally, as well as physically."

    So it's love, respect, and obedience + hard contact sparring, how could you go wrong?

    I didn't know that so many people even did karate in NYC!


    Oh, and Kyokushin, as Oyama stated, is for all ages and people. They have children's class and such in many dojos. Someone my age (55) probably isn't going to be able to train or spar as hard as a 25 year old, but so what? (I just pretend I'm arthritic and stiff, then kick 'em in their teeth).
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 11/24/2005 2:13am at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  10. PollyR is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2005 10:07am


     Style: Seido karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vile
    The boxing gloves sounds encouraging mainly becuase it implies they work head punches in sparring - something KK would do well to implement.
    They were also kicking to the head which really surprised me.


    I've been to camps with two of the American shihans from Seido - Charles Martin and William Olliver. Both awesome, very strong and understand the practical side or their technique. They were the number 2 and 3 men in the world for Seido at that time. New Zealand is lucky to have the number 4 and 5 men (or they were) Andy Barber and Renzie Hanham. I've had a training session with Nakamura, but it was so crowded that we couldn't really move (only one he had done here for nearly a decade). Shihan Sana isn't a familiar name to me, but that doesn't mean much - its been nearly a decade and I am on the other side of the world.
    I heard that Oliver passed away about a year ago. Shihan Sana used to teach out of one of the NYC locations and still does on occasion. I think he said he goes there once a week to train with Nakamura which I thought was a good sign.


    At teh very least since they don't require a contract you can train as long as you want without needing to worry if you decide you don't like it or need something else. Get used to press ups and yelling OSU. :toothy9:
    Funny you mentioned that. I heard a lot of OSU's when I was there. What is a press up? Is it like a push up?

    I'm going to check out a BJJ/kickboxing school later tonight to see if I can afford both Seido and BJJ. I'd like to learn some grappling/ground techiniques if I could. I will report back later.

    Thanks again for your advice/knowledge!
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