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View Poll Results: Should ID be taught in a judeo-christian religion class?

Voters
14. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, pretty much just as it can be now

    9 64.29%
  • No, it's not a religion

    7 50.00%
  • No, it's not in the Bible, so it has no place in such a class

    2 14.29%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2005 12:41am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you're going to push to teach ID, teach it in a philosphy class. They're **** anyway.
  2. Moleculo is offline
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    nuthin' ta f*ck with

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2005 3:14am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [rant] States should not sponsor the teaching of religion.

    How fucking clear is the US constitution on that issue?


    How bout we start teaching no touch knockouts as part of a sports history class?

    Hows about we start teaching kids that aliens sprinkled life all across the galaxy and will come back someday to hunt us as prey?

    Hows about we elect a religious moron to the presidency and have him read childrens books upside-down and ask pertinent questions such as "Is our kids learning?"

    Jesus baldheaded Christ.

    [/end rant]
  3. PO9 is offline

    10th level Superlesson Grandmaster

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2005 10:58pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No reese, those would all be incredibly dumb ideas.
    Who, for Pete’s sake! Is opposing science? In fact, we want MORE science by CRITICALLY ANALIZING the evidence-Connie Morris, Kansas State BOE (bolding and underlining part of original quote, red is my emphasis)


    As long as you try to treat your subjective experiences as if they were objective experiences, you will continue to be confounded by people who disagree with you.-some guy on an internet messageboard
  4. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2005 11:11pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by beka
    I most certainly believe that people should take folklore courses, not just because it would keep them from being stupid enough to think their one way of thinking is the right one, but because a solid understanding of folklore helps give a better understanding of society and people as a whole. However, since Intelligent Design is not in the realm of folklore, it has no role in a folklore course. Nor does it have a place in a science course, as it is not science, either.

    Therefore, Intelligent Design deserves no place in any academic setting.
    Not to mention, folklore, legends, and myths are always fun to learn about.
  5. Moleculo is offline
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    nuthin' ta f*ck with

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2005 11:51pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PO9
    No reese, those would all be incredibly dumb ideas.

    Yeah, that was my whole point...

    But unfortunately it's already started:

    http://politicalhumor.about.com/libr...upsidedown.htm
  6. Torakaka is offline
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    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2005 1:12am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    seriously, what's to teach?

    "Ok kids, today we learn about the intelligent design of the world. As it stands that there are things too complex to have come into being spontaneously, the world was designed by an intelligent creator.

    Well, that abour wraps things up, final report is due on Wednesday."
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  7. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2005 2:00am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The real question is which _ing _un lineage will be taught?
    Imports from Japan, Shipping Worldwide! Art Junkie, Scramble, BJJ Spirits, Reversal...
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  8. Ian G.R. is offline

    Sociocidal sociocider

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2005 12:06pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Behe sets out to prove irreducible complexity..WTFpWnz! himself

    I don't belive cluttering in making new threads...especially one that will be merged later on. e.g. creationist vs. evolutionist threads
    The creationist movement was ll <-this close to having their first peer review papar...so close
    Michael Behe's paper, shortly told, uses a computer simulation to prove it would take an enormous amount of generations to make enough mutations for a new species to be made.
    Unfortunately for him, however, he proves the exact opposite
    A quote from the crossexamination from the court trrial in penn.
    Behe is called as an expert witness for the case of ID.
    Q. And let me just ask you a few questions, and you tell me if I'm fairly summarizing the results of your computer simulation. What you're asking is, how long will it take to get -- and please follow with me, I'm trying to do this slowly and methodically -- two or more specific mutations, in specific locations, in a specific gene, in a specific population, if the function is not able to be acted on by natural selection until all the mutations are in place, if the only form of mutation is point mutation, and the population of organisms is asexual?
    A. I would have to look at that statement closely because there are so many different aspects to it that I don't trust myself to sit here and listen to you say that and form a correct judgment.

    Q. Anything I said about that sound incorrect?

    A. If you repeat it again, I'll try.

    Q. I'd be happy to. Two or more specific mutations?

    A. Actually, this dealt with one or more.

    Q. One or more mutations?

    A. Yes. If you notice, in figure -- if you notice in figure 3, you look at the x axis, you notice that there are data points there that start at one. So we considered models where there were one, two, and more mutations.

    Q. Fair enough. In specific locations?

    A. No, that's not correct. We assumed that there were several locations in the gene that could undergo these selectable mutations, but we did not designate where they were.

    Q. In the specific gene?

    A. We were considering one gene, yes.

    Q. In a specific population?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Okay. If the function is not able to be acted on by natural selection until all mutations are in place?

    A. Yes, that's what's meant by multiple amino acid residue, multi-residue feature, yes.

    Q. If the only form of mutation is point mutation?

    A. Yes, that's a very common type of mutation, which is probably half or more of the mutations that occur in an organism.

    Q. And if the population of organisms is asexual?

    A. Yes, we did not -- actually, we did not confine it just to asexuals, but we did not consider recombination.

    Q. Are prokaryotes an example of the kind of organism that you were studying there?

    A. Again, we weren't studying organisms, but, yeah, they're a good example of what such a model has in mind.

    Q. And to say this very colloquially, you conclude that it will take a large population a long time to evolve a particular function at disulfide bond, right?

    A. A multi-residue feature. That's correct, that's correct.

    Q. And specifically --

    A. I'm sorry.

    Q. Go ahead.

    A. Let me just finish. Depending on -- as we emphasize in the paper, it depends on the population size. And, of course, prokaryotes can oftentimes grow to very large population sizes.

    Q. And here the conclusion, the calculations you concluded was that, if you had a population of 10 to the 9th power, that's a population of 1 billion?

    A. That's correct.

    Q. To produce a novel protein feature through the kind of multiple point mutations you're talking about, it would take 10 to the 8th generations, that's what it says in the abstract, correct?

    A. If, in fact, it was -- if, in fact, the intermediate states were not selectable.

    Q. Okay.

    A. And if this is by gene duplication as well.

    Q. Okay. So 10 to the 8th generation, that's 100 million generations?

    A. That's correct.

    Q. And yesterday, you explained about bacteria, that 10,000 generations would take about two years in the laboratory, correct?

    A. Yes.
    Q. So 100 million generations, that would take about 20,000 years?

    A. I'm sorry?

    Q. 100 million generations, which is what you calculated here, that would take about 20,000 years?

    A. Okay, yes.

    Q. And those are numbers based on your probability calculations in this model, correct?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Now it would be true that, if you waited a little longer, say, instead of 10 to 9th generations, 10 to the 10th generations, then it would mean that you wouldn't need as big a population to get the function that you are studying?

    A. That's right. The more chances you have, the more likely you are to develop a feature. And the chances are affected by the number of organisms. So if you have a smaller population time, and more generations, that could be essentially equal to a larger population size and fewer generations.

    Q. So, as you said, so if we get more time, we need less population to get to the same point, and if we had more population, less time?

    A. That's correct, yes.'

    Q. Now would you agree that this model has some
    limitations?

    A. Sure.
    Q. And you, in fact, were quite candid in indicating that in the paper?

    A. That's correct.

    Q. And if we could turn to, what I believe is, page 8 of the document. And if you look in the paragraph that's actually continued from the previous page that says, we strongly emphasize. And if you could --

    A. I'm sorry. What page number is that?

    Q. It's page 8 in the document. And it's up on the screen as well.

    A. Yes, okay. I've got it.

    Q. Could you read into the record the text to the end of the paragraph beginning with, we strongly emphasize?

    A. We strongly emphasize that results bearing on the efficiency of this one pathway as a conduit for Darwinian evolution say little or nothing about the efficiency of other possible pathways. Thus, for example, the present study that examines the evolution of MR protein features by point mutation in duplicate genes does not indicate whether evolution of such features by other processes, such as recombination or insertion/deletion mutations, would be more or less efficient.

    Q. So it doesn't include recombination, it doesn't include insertion/deletion of the mutations?

    A. That's correct.

    Q. And those are understood as pathways for Darwinian evolution?

    A. They are potential pathways, yes.

    Q. This study didn't involve transposition?

    A. No, this focuses on a single gene.

    Q. And transpositions are, they are a kind of mutation, is that right?

    A. Yes. They can be, yes.

    Q. And so that means, this simulation didn't examine a number of the mechanisms by which evolution actually operates?

    A. That is correct, yes.

    Q. And this paper, let's be clear here, doesn't say anything about intelligent design?

    A. Yes, that's correct. It does imply irreducible complexity but not intelligent design.

    Q. But it doesn't say it?

    A. That's correct.

    Q. And one last other question on your paper. You concluded, it would take a population size of 10 to the 9th, I think we said that was a billion, 10 to the 8th generations to evolve this new disulfide bond, that was your conclusion?

    A. That was the calculation based on the assumptions in the paper, yes.

    MR. ROTHSCHILD: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?

    THE COURT: You may.

    BY MR. ROTHSCHILD:
    Q. What I've marked as Exhibit P-756 is an article in the journal Science called Exploring Micro--

    A. Microbial.

    Q. Thank you -- Diversity, A Vast Below by T.P. Curtis and W.T. Sloan?

    A. Yes, that seems to be it.

    Q. In that first paragraph, he says, There are more than 10 to the 16 prokaryotes in a ton of soil. Is that correct, in that first paragraph?
    A. Yes, that's right.

    Q. In one ton of soil?

    A. That's correct.

    Q. And we have a lot more than one ton of soil on Earth, correct?

    A. Yes, we do.

    Q. And have for some time, correct?

    A. That's correct, yes.
    WTF0\/\/n3d!

    The interesting thing about this, is that, Behe invertantly made an argument for evolution.. Could he be a sleeper agent for the evilutionary oppressors? (note that it is misspelled intentionally for the sake of humour)
    Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil. - Machiavelli
  9. Moleculo is offline
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    nuthin' ta f*ck with

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2005 12:44pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The devil made him do it.
  10. AthleticGirl is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2005 10:56pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's funny that creationists try to prove their religion by calling it science and denounce evolution by calling it a religion.
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