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  1. G.R. Bug is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 7:10am


     Style: None, at present

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    Seems to me you're taking the wrong tack.

    Having a training pack that allows people without access to a qualified instructor to get the basics down is hardly a crime. Giving the "instructor" a belt under such a system is more iffy, but if it's not a normal BJJ belt the distinction is still being made and it's hard to argue standards are being watered down.
    Yeah, but this isn't a "teach yourself" kit, it's a "do it yourself BJJ school" kit. It may be that the standards for promotion never get watered down, but that doesn't prevent incompetent would-be BJJ teachers from providing crappy instruction to noobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    The potential weakness seems to me to be in the testing of students by video. If you'd brought that up on the thread on JJgear, I think you'd have had a more sympathetic reaction.
    Nah. I think the interaction woulda worked out the same way no matter what, because one of Jerry's students is a big dog over there, and he obviously isn't open to considering the possibility his instructor is doing something foolish.
  2. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 7:28am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    " IBJJA School Member Fees
    NOTE: The following fees and prices are confidential and apply to IBJJA School Memberís only. IBJJA Instructors can charge higher fees and higher retail prices to their students. All certificates can be issued only to IBJJA members. Payment must be in US currency. We reserve the right to hold shipment until checks clear.... "

    Has everyone skipped over the CONFIDENTIAL part of that letter ??
    Hello !!!!
  3. tapout_king is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 8:25am


     Style: BJJ, Muy Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shamefull.
  4. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 8:48am

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A few points:

    • 99.99999999999999% of people on the planet are not Marc Laimon or Evan Tanner. Learning from videos is not anywhere near as effective as nor a replacement for having a real instructor there, nor will it ever be until the time comes when you can plug your head into a machine and two minutes later say "Whoa... I know BJJ". However, it IS an effective way to quickly spread your school's reach and generate money up the affiliation pyramid. Krav Maga has been using this model for years, giving extremely questionable certifications to McDojo instructors in order to establish a foothold.

    • There is nothing wrong with learning from videos or books AS LONG AS YOU'RE DOING IT TO SUPPLIMENT YOUR REAL TRAINING. However, everything is wrong with grading people by mail/video/phone/telepathy/etc, even if you create a McDojo belt system for yourself. The "dark blue" mess is bullshit. It's obviously designed to mislead people into mistaking it for a black belt.

    • BJJ is growing fast enough as it is. There's no need for compromising the quality in order to spread the art if your intentions are in good. However, if your intentions are to make a fast buck off the commercialization of the Martial Arts while also giving people an unrealistic, unjustified sense of skill/accomplishment, then you deserve to have your BS exposed to the world for what it is: greed over principles and character.

    • The point would be moot if they weren't marketing it as real BJJ. If the marketing materials presented it as a "Supplimentary grappling cirriculum derrived from actual Brazillian Jiujitsu", this discussion wouldn't even be taking place. But the wording of the material clearly states that you will be learning BJJ, not generic grappling. Schools aren't presented as being able to offer "grappling", they're told they'll be able to offer BJJ. It's as asinine as McDonalds buying chopped steak and putting it up on the menu as Filet Mignon.
  5. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 9:05am

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    By the way, I responded over there to Mr. Chokester.

    Going through the user queue I noticed two people register under the names of Jerry Laurita and Mike Massie.

    I'm going to move this from the front page, back to Bullshido, to allow them to respond before this goes forward, assuming that's really them.
  6. Sam Browning is online now

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 10:24am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I remember the way Rorin used to do it at the old Gracie training network. Now a lot of people accuse Rorin of being money hungry, but he was able to keep higher standards then this. Here was his basic business model for a network school.

    1) Wait until he had someone who had earned a blue belt. This person would typically go to a week long training camp, roll with some buddies, go to some seminars, go out to Cali again, and at that point be given permisson to open up not a school but a training association. (Difference to be explained below) During this time Rorion would evaluate this person and make sure they were not a headcase, and were a responsible individual.

    2) The person would rent space, and start the training association. Rorian would receive a rake off from a yearly membership due. (I think it was $25 or $40 to the best of my memory, or maybe it was a one time fee) The blue belt would explain that they were a bunch of guys getting together to train and that Rorian or Royce would come by several times a year to run seminars, and do any testing that needed to be done. People were encouraged to visit the torrence school or area seminars when the Gracies were in the area.

    3) The training association charged people a reduced monthly fee (lower then a full school would charge) When Royce came by people would attend his seminars, there were no belt testing fees, whatever ranking was done was done there. He also kept an eye on things and corrected mistakes that may have crept into the curriculam.

    4) Eventually the training association would become a full school.

    The advantage in terms of quality control was that the person running the show, had a real lower level belt when they started teaching, and a clue what they were doing. They had also worked out with people who actually taught them in person before they started up. They were not dependant upon remote instruction, or training aids. (though these certainly helped) For a grappling art like BJJ which depends on touch and feel, the concept that one can test from a distance is laughable.

    There is enough BJJ out there now so this method of instruction is not needed except for $$$$.
  7. Justin is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 10:25am


     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow Phrost weighs in, nicely done. BSD's reception over there was not unlike my own here, but I wonder why they're so automatically defensive? Seems that BSD didn't take a tone with them, and was more than willing to correct his post and give them his real name (mistake I also learned :) ). Yet the flame war was immediately on.
  8. G.R. Bug is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 11:36am


     Style: None, at present

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, this is weird. I was just on the JJG forum and -- temporarily -- there was a post from someone with the screen name Lauritabjj who spoke as though he was Jerry Laurita, who gave a bunch of specifics about the techniques required to test for blue belt in his system. he also said something to the effect of, "when I said you could start teaching my material in a week I didn't mean people SHOULD REALLY DO IT."

    I was going to cut and paste that post to put it here, and it seems to have disappeared.
  9. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 11:45am


     Style: -

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can't but agree.

    But you have missed the long term solution that I have suggested: non-profit BJJ clubs.

    I'm all for exposure of unethical practices in MA. I'm just not sure how effective it is going to be.

    Tomas

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    **** that noise. You do realize what we're trying to accomplish here, right?

    This is bullshit, and it needs to be exposed to EVERYONE before it's too late. I don't even do BJJ and I know this is bad for the Martial Arts. This business model is unethical, promotes McDojo practices, and defecates on the integrity and respect that BJJ has built up through NOT selling out its principles in exchange for commercial success.

    If anyone has qualms with trying to clean up the Martial Arts by exposing assholes who exploit them for money with no concerns for the true quality of the product they're selling, then I kindly suggest they get the **** off this website posthaste.
    Current stage of death: denial
  10. Te(V)plar is offline

    Stallowned!

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 12:49pm


     Style: BJJ/MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sherdog grappling forum is taking the news more understandably

    http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showth...=307683&page=1
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