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  1. grapplingidiot is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 8:11pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TxSanshou View Post
    In my opinion its better to not know a set date that you will accomplish your goal of becoming a black belt because it makes you work harder and truly appreciate every belt you get in between.
    I agree, when I started at my gym (last month) the first question I asked was, "How do belt progressions work here?" The instructor told me that it really depends on a)my ability and b)my time commitment. Some guys have gone to blue in less than a year and then I just rolled with a guy the other night who has been a white for almost 3 years. So I know I am able to advance, if I put the time in and really learn the material. (BTW my gym is a Carlson Gracie Jr. affiliate, yes he only shows up periodically throughout the year for "seminars" that cost about 70, but the head instructor at my school earned his black belt under Carlson Jr. so I feel like I am at least informed about the level of instruction that I am getting.)
  2. deadline0916 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 11:43pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo, jiujitsu, MCMAP

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    On what basis do you make these claims? How much BJJ experience do you have? Have you ever competed?

    I've been taking BJJ for over 7 years and have competed in multiple tournaments. It appears to me you have little to no idea what you're talking about.
    Not claims, just my opinion.

    I'd think you'd agree that you can't be competitive basing your training solely on a curriculum you take online then, right? If not, I find that truly amazing and applaud you.

    I've been doing BJJ and judo for over 4 years and have competed in 2 grapplers quest and one judo tournament.
  3. deadline0916 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 11:23am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo, jiujitsu, MCMAP

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    On what basis do you make these claims? How much BJJ experience do you have? Have you ever competed?

    I've been taking BJJ for over 7 years and have competed in multiple tournaments. It appears to me you have little to no idea what you're talking about.
    [edit]
    It appears that in 7 years you've never read anything on the history of BJJ. I find that hard to believe and question if you've really been practicing and competing in BJJ that long, or at all. What tournaments? What's your rank and who awarded it?

    According to Wikipedia Carlos Sr was just 17, with 3 years of judo experience before he started teaching his brothers. Helio couldn't even practice at that time. He sat and watched his brothers for 4 years until Carlos didn't show up to teach one day and he taught. He WATCHED.

    So, Carlos was teaching after 3 years and Helio taught after watching for 4. All my point was was that why then should the bar be raised so high for everyone else?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9lio_Gracie
    Last edited by deadline0916; 4/07/2009 11:26am at .
  4. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 11:42am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's ironic as I started to post some of that information last night.

    Let's imagine the year is 1921 and Carlos doesn't know it yet, but he's about to create BJJ. He has three years of Judo under his belt and his brothers are clamoring for him to teach them. Later, other students start to train with them. It becomes apparent that Carlos needs something to signify his authority to teach this offshoot of Judo. He borrows and adapts the belt system from Judo.

    Would you have done it differently?

    Your misinterpretation of history is not really what I was referring to when I replied to your earlier post. This is what grabbed my attention:

    Quote Originally Posted by deadline0916
    Too much of BJJ rank has had to do with athleticism.
    Spoken like a musclehead grappler. Some of the best grapplers alive today, like Marcelo Garcia, were not very athletic when they started out.

    The better you become in BJJ, the more you rely on technique, not athleticism. Beginner's rely on their physical abilities, talented veterans do not. As an older practitioner, I can no longer perform some of the more acrobatic moves I favored as a white and blue belt. The older I get, the more I rely on my technique.
  5. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 11:51am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by deadline0916 View Post
    [edit]
    It appears that in 7 years you've never read anything on the history of BJJ. I find that hard to believe and question if you've really been practicing and competing in BJJ that long, or at all. What tournaments? What's your rank and who awarded it?
    Click on my profile. My instructor and tournament record are listed there. I am familiar with the history of my martial art, thank you for asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by deadline0916 View Post
    So, Carlos was teaching after 3 years and Helio taught after watching for 4. All my point was was that why then should the bar be raised so high for everyone else?
    Because that was almost 90 years ago, and the sport has evolved since then. An established curriculum and standards of mastery exist now that had not yet been created back then. Not to mention, 90 years of refinement.

    Why are you not smart enough to figure this out for yourself?
  6. grapplingidiot is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 12:14pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadline0916 View Post
    [edit]According to Wikipedia Carlos Sr was just 17, with 3 years of judo experience before he started teaching his brothers. Helio couldn't even practice at that time. He sat and watched his brothers for 4 years until Carlos didn't show up to teach one day and he taught. He WATCHED.
    Read a little closer, according to Wikipedia, Carlos was 14 in 1916 and then in 1921 (five years later) he was 17... so if he taught his brothers in 1921 he should be 19 which gives him 5 years of training rather than 3 years.

    Also, # of years in training is relevant to the degree of training, look at BJ Penn, he got his BB in what, around 4 years? Would you feel that he was qualified to teach you? How about somebody who went to 3 or 4 classes a week and took 9 or 10 years to get BB because BJJ wasn't their top priority, are they more or less suited to teach than BJ is because it took them twice as long to get a BB?

    According to the IBJJF, you can go from blue to black in 4 1/2 years
    Last edited by grapplingidiot; 4/07/2009 12:18pm at .
  7. deadline0916 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 12:37pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo, jiujitsu, MCMAP

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    Quote Originally Posted by grapplingidiot View Post
    Read a little closer, according to Wikipedia, Carlos was 14 in 1916 and then in 1921 (five years later) he was 17... so if he taught his brothers in 1921 he should be 19 which gives him 5 years of training rather than 3 years.

    Also, # of years in training is relevant to the degree of training, look at BJ Penn, he got his BB in what, around 4 years? Would you feel that he was qualified to teach you? How about somebody who went to 3 or 4 classes a week and took 9 or 10 years to get BB because BJJ wasn't their top priority, are they more or less suited to teach than BJ is because it took them twice as long to get a BB?

    According to the IBJJF, you can go from blue to black in 4 1/2 years

    Fair enough, all I am saying is that tournaments are a sport...no matter how much of a master someone is, sports require athleticism.
    I would absolutely agree that BJ Penn, Young Carlos and Young Helio are more than qualified to teach, which was part of my point. If someone is good after 4-5 years, why should tey have to way another 5 years to be a black belt or to teach? The older the Grandmaster got, the more he upped the bar on the standards, when in reality he and his brothers were teaching at a far earlier age. It should take 10 years to get a black belt is all I was saying.

    Thanks for the replies. I am sure you know your stuff, just wanted to antagonize your first response. Thanks.
  8. deadline0916 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 12:41pm

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     Style: Judo, jiujitsu, MCMAP

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    That's ironic as I started to post some of that information last night.

    Let's imagine the year is 1921 and Carlos doesn't know it yet, but he's about to create BJJ. He has three years of Judo under his belt and his brothers are clamoring for him to teach them. Later, other students start to train with them. It becomes apparent that Carlos needs something to signify his authority to teach this offshoot of Judo. He borrows and adapts the belt system from Judo.

    Would you have done it differently?

    Your misinterpretation of history is not really what I was referring to when I replied to your earlier post. This is what grabbed my attention:


    Spoken like a musclehead grappler. Some of the best grapplers alive today, like Marcelo Garcia, were not very athletic when they started out.

    The better you become in BJJ, the more you rely on technique, not athleticism. Beginner's rely on their physical abilities, talented veterans do not. As an older practitioner, I can no longer perform some of the more acrobatic moves I favored as a white and blue belt. The older I get, the more I rely on my technique.

    LOL by the way, I am far from a musclehead grappler. My buddy and I talk about those types all the time. I fight featherweight' BJJ and judo are my only grappling experience. After nearly 5 years I still consider myself a novice to the art and barely worthy to teach intro classes. I completely agre with what you've said in your last paragraph.
  9. deadline0916 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 12:46pm

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     Style: Judo, jiujitsu, MCMAP

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    Quote Originally Posted by TxSanshou View Post
    This is one of the biggest problems with people taking martial arts these days I'm probably gonna get flamed for this but forget it.Martial arts and combat sports are for exactly what the name implies fighting and athletics if you don't want to fight (like a lot of the people at my mcDojo) or you don't want to put forth an effort to being an athlete then take up break dancing or ballet. People want rank and they want it fast they want to be able to say I'm a black belt and don't care if they really earn it or not. Real martial arts is about work commitment dedication discipline ,its about going through mental and physical agony and coming out stronger people don't wanna go through that but they wanna act like they have.If you cant put yourself through these tests and trials then don't call yourself a martial artist.To address this statement "It should take 3-5 years to earn a black belt in just about any martial art. Now, mastery is another story." the black belt is a symbol of mastery thats exactly why it should take so long to earn one especially if you don't intend on fighting and competing to show that you have earned the right to have one sooner than everyone else. thats why bjj is such a well structured martial art with their ranking system if you want to come to class and be lazy thats fine you will be a white belt for 8 years or if you want to push yourself as an athlete you can be like bj penn and be a black belt in four years its all up to the student. In my opinion its better to not know a set date that you will accomplish your goal of becoming a black belt because it makes you work harder and truly appreciate every belt you get in between. Thats just my opinion on the matter God bless

    The timeframe of 3-5 years I stated was with the presumption of competance and effort. I've been practicing nearly 5 years and am nowhere near it, but am the first to admit it is from lack of effort, because it isn't my priority and I play for recreation. I have the athleticism, fitness and skill, I just don't care as much as some others.

    Good post.
  10. grapplingidiot is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 1:13pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadline0916 View Post
    The timeframe of 3-5 years I stated was with the presumption of competance and effort. I've been practicing nearly 5 years and am nowhere near it, but am the first to admit it is from lack of effort, because it isn't my priority and I play for recreation. I have the athleticism, fitness and skill, I just don't care as much as some others.

    Good post.
    I personally think that here in America we want a good ol' pat on the back for "trying our best" and that shouldn't be what it is all about. Ranking should be exactly what it says RANKING. I would expect (with very few exceptions) that a person of (insert belt color) should be able to routinely beat those of lower rank. Time in rank should matter less than proficiency in rank. The IBJJF doesn't say how long to go from white to blue, but you can go from blue to purple in 2 years, based on that info, a person could be teaching classes as a purple belt in about 3 years (1 to get blue 2 for purple) but obviously if you are me, you WILL NOT be teaching anyone anything in three years. I go to class for fun about twice a week, am currently out of shape, and still think way too slow when rolling.

    Sorry about that, I started to drift into a rant...

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