Posted On:11/19/2005 11:17am
I should also mention that under this plan the navy belt will be teaching after one week only having rolled with a local similarly inexperienced partner. So its not like they teach after going down and working out with Jerry for 40 hours, here its the blind leading the blind.
Posted On:11/19/2005 2:16pm
Style: None, at present
Here's a post, ostensibly from Mike Massie, from JJGear -- note that he claims he's trying to post here...
Re: The Bullshidofication of Brazillian Jiu Jitsu
« Reply #98 on: Today at 09:11:58 AM »
I figured I would chime in here on this forum since this all got started after I sent out Jerry's info to my list from Starting-A-Martial-Arts-School.com. Plus, I tried to register to post my two cents at Bullshido.com but for some strange reason I haven't been approved to post...
Anyway, it seems what we have here is the old "Can you learn from a video (well enough to teach)?" debate. Hmmmm... let me just say that I had SERIOUS misgivings about the ability of a person to learn a comprehensive martial arts program from video, until just a few months ago when I had the opportunity to witness some instructors in South Texas who earned their black belts in Chinese Kenpo from the ICKA totally through video (I"m going to add a caveat in here below, so for those of you who are about to say, "But that's kenpo!" stick with me here."
Now, I had seen some ICKA students before, and I wasn't all that impressed. However, these black belts I am referring to had excellent technique, great speed, timing, focus and power, and their students were impressive as well. How do you explain the difference between that and the other students I had seen? Your guess is as good as mine, but I'd hazard to say it had as much to do with their willingness to get on the mat and train as it did with the quality of the program they studied.
Now, for that caveat...
The difference between kenpo and BJJ is the element of a RESISTING opponent/partner. I'm fortunate enough to live near a town that has several BJJ schools, and I actually was able to take lessons from a purple belt who taught in my school for about 8 months a few years back. Plus, I have visited a couple of the local schools and trained a few times to see where I was at a few years back (and yes, I was okay with some newer white and blue belts I got to roll with, but was clearly outskilled by the more experienced students - something that I expected and welcomed as a part of the learning process).
So, I can say without reservation that without practicing with a resisting partner/opponent, and putting in mat time, all your knowledge of submissions, etc. will not help much against someone who regularly trains with resistance. I'm stating the obvious here, I know, but that's the main difference as I see it between the two.
Now, as for whether a person could learn well enough from a video to teach... I don't know. One thing is for sure, though - you're only as good as the people you train with. That's why I think it's imperative for ANYONE who buys Jerry's package to either travel and train with him directly, or to try to maintain a good relationship with an instructor who is closer that can help them increase their skill level and fill in the blanks when they start to roll. I know I'll be doing both, because I don't want to pass on poor technique to my students.
Jerry has already told me that he expects his students to COMPETE and to regularly roll. So, you don't have to worry about going to choke these guys out at their schools - you're going to see them on the mat sometime, somewhere, at some event, and if they suck everyone is going to know it anyway. I say let the responsibility to back up their skills at tournament fall on them, and it will all come out in the wash anyway.
(As an aside, I also told Jerry that I would not be able, in clear conscience, to advertise that I was teaching BJJ until I had AT LEAST earned a blue belt - he said he understood. So, even though I may own his program - which is, in my limited estimation, very good and thorough - you're not going to see the words "BJJ" or "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" anywhere on my marketing materials. But that just me - I don't know what anyone else is going to do. I hold rank in other systems that teach submissions, so we'll still work on the curriculum, but I'm not going to say I teach it if I don't have a legitimate credential to do so. And yes, I mentioned in my email that you could add a lot of adults to your program - but I am not going to recommend anyone try to do that before they know what they're doing on the mat...)
From what I can tell, Jerry is a great guy who is just trying to help others learn the same way many of you who are now teaching did - through videos, seminars, and private lessons. Remember, there are a lot of guys who don't live on the East or West coast, and don't have a ton of blue and purple belts around to train with like I do. So, a program like Jerry's will help them at least get started out - just like many of you did when you first started (and don't try to play it off - I know many of the guys teaching today got their start by training from videos, attending seminars, and spending their life savings on private lessons.)
Personally, I think it's a good thing that a guy who is training in an art that doesn't offer much realism or resistance would start trying to learn and pass on something that does. And maybe Jerry should rethink his requirements for letting someone teach before he moves forward (maybe with a week long camp or several weekend seminars). But, the guy is passionate about BJJ and I believe in the end this will help BJJ, overall.
And for you guys who are already monsters on the mat - think of it this way. If someone doesn't put the time in to learn it right, and teaches poor technique, their students are going to end up in your school eventually anyway.
That's just my two cents.
- Mike Massie
Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!
Posted On:11/19/2005 2:45pm
Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu
I give up over there at jiujitsugear.com. Apparently common sense, logic and integrity are not qualities intrinsic with the bjj gear buying forum crowd. We should all turn our backs and let the chips fall where they may. Well, I go back to the other half of my brain that says **** it. More fish = less hassle for my ass on the street. I had actually given up on bjj years ago because of **** like this but was willing to fight for it again. Silly me!
To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
Posted On:11/19/2005 2:48pm
Originally Posted by G.R. Bug
Here's a post, ostensibly from Mike Massie, from JJGear -- note that he claims he's trying to post here...
It took me over a week to receive the email allowing me to post here when I first joined so I would take that with a grain of salt. Unless things have improved since then... Frost?
Trying to make sense of it all
Posted On:11/19/2005 3:27pm
Style: Jiu Jitsu
It's not a big surprise. The tremendous popularity of MMA and BJJ at this point in time is reason enough for any martial arts school to feel the need to compete. This is a pretty lousy way to do it, though. If I were running a martial arts school and wanted to add BJJ to the class schedule, I'd hire a real life BJJ instructor to teach a BJJ class three nights a week.
You also have to bear in mind that most MA instructors don't want their students to cross-train, because there's a conflict of interest and if the students like the other school better... well, Mr. Chen's TKD just lost some students. Better to bring BJJ to them then let them leave and go to BJJ.
The inclusion of a grappling/groundfighting program is a good thing, and really all MA schools should do it, but not this way. Hire a BJJ instructor or a wrestling coach to teach the class, or even go and cross train and bring the BJJ back to your school with you.
Posted On:11/19/2005 3:29pm
Below are the two most important paragraphs in Mikes letter
"Now, as for whether a person could learn well enough from a video to teach... I don't know. One thing is for sure, though - you're only as good as the people you train with. That's why I think it's imperative for ANYONE who buys Jerry's package to either travel and train with him directly, or to try to maintain a good relationship with an instructor who is closer that can help them increase their skill level and fill in the blanks when they start to roll. I know I'll be doing both, because I don't want to pass on poor technique to my students."
I don't blame Mike for the fact that Jerry is not requiriing his "instructors" to study with him in person for any time, let alone a length of time before instructing people. Oh thats right, they rolled for a week with someone else who might have watched the tape with them.
"Personally, I think it's a good thing that a guy who is training in an art that doesn't offer much realism or resistance would start trying to learn and pass on something that does. And maybe Jerry should rethink his requirements for letting someone teach before he moves forward (maybe with a week long camp or several weekend seminars). But, the guy is passionate about BJJ and I believe in the end this will help BJJ, overall."
BJJ has already reached critical mass. We have blue belts all over the place, many of whom are competent to teach newbies. So we're helping BJJ overall by introducing a group of students to sub-blue instructors with no skill and a week of experience? These students should instead find someone with a clue.
Wait until one of these schools breaks away from Jerry within two years, and starts handing out its own blue belts on up. I'll bet Jerry $100 that this will happen.
Posted On:11/19/2005 4:28pm
Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ
Originally Posted by Bud Shi Dist
Here is my response to Jerry...
All the martial arts school owner has to do is step on the mat with a real BJJ instructor, and he will be taught a serious lesson, just like I was my first time.
for instance this is what I am doing. I am a 2nd strike blue. I have a blackbelt teach at my school for at least until I am a purple and then I will still train under him.
Posted On:11/20/2005 12:09am
More from Mike Massie on JJGear, responding to Mouthfire...
Here's Mouthfire's retort to a post Massie made earlier, which is in my post on this thread, about 4 posts ago.
Thanks for weighing in on the issue. I have to point out a few things, however. Learning techniques from a video is not a bad thing. As you have pointed out, many BJJ practictioners (including present day instructors) have gotten their start by learning from books and videos. That being said, that is totally different from being officially certified to be a BJJ instructor from a week's worth of video learning. If Laurita advertised his video course purely as an adjuctive learning tool, and not as a instructor certification course, I don't think anyone would have any qualms about it.
BJJ Fighter and TheTrain have already both succintly summarized many of our concerns. There is one more point that I must bring up. You and Laurita seem to be saying that the skill levels of the legitimate BJJ instructors will be readily apparent to the average consumer, and so they will be at an advantage over the "one-week video instructors". This is NOT true. The average consumer has absolutely no clue who is good and who is not. Furthermore, the market to which you are advertising this course to are the TKD/Karate dojos out there, who 1) are more mainstream, 2) often have student numbers exponentially outnumbering those of BJJ places, and 3) have advertising budgets that legitimate BJJ places can't even begin to approach. As much as BJJ has become more popular recently, it still remains a niche market, and even people in the know often have to search hard for legitimate BJJ places in their area.... the average consumer won't spend nearly as much effort, and will likely go for the first thing they find in the phone book (ie the mainstream TKD teaching BJJ on the side).
If anyone is wondering how this will probably eventually end up, they need look no further than the current state of karate. I started up doing karate a long time ago, so I know how it is. If you go to a local karate tournament, it is virtually littered with high-ranking students who couldn't fight their way out of a wet-paper bag. Of course, there ARE legitimate karate instructors out there who could give you a run for your money. But their schools are so few and far in between, and they don't have as many students because it's "too hard" for your average joe. So it's more llikely that the tournament is filled with nothing but second-rate instructors and their students. But hey.... everyone there fights at the same poor proficiency, so everyone there ends up looking good, right?
This is not where BJJ should be heading. If on the off-chance this video instructor course turns out profitable for the TKD and Karate dojos out there, the BJJ scene will soon be littered with thousands of students receiving second-rate training. Who will be the wiser? Not the students... they don't have anything else to compare their training to. The McDojo instructor will know, of course, but they're not going to tell their students that. Furthermore, in order to keep their students, they're likely going to keep their students naive by keeping them away from tournaments with legitimate BJJ schools participating and instead run lolly-pop tournaments with other McDojos. The legitimate BJJ practioners will also know, but what are they to do? Challenge matches at the second rate schools?? That's not going to happen nowadays, for various reasons.....
In any event, some people may think this picture is a little far-fetched. But I have to point out that this has already happened... It happened to karate.... It happened to TKD.... Hell, it's even already happening to Muay Thai.... History tends to repeat itself, and people who don't learn from history will make the same mistakes.
Now here's Massie's response...
I can see your point about the one week thing.
About marketing Jerry's videos to karate and tkd schools... Funny thing is - most of the guys on my list are folks who are just starting out or who have very small schools. I don't market to large mega-studios, because that's not what my information is about. It's about being able to make it when you're a small studio owner who is trying to keep your quality high without watering down your curriculum. I think that's a theme that rings true with a lot of the people on my list, and that's the type of person who typically purchases my materials. So for the most part, the guys on my list don't have a lot of money to throw around on advertising.
But, it's conceivable that someone from one of those big 500 student black belt factories could conceivably start teaching Jerry's stuff. But if they didn't get with the program and develop some skill, or if they were just passing on horrible jj, I have to wonder how long it would be before Jerry ran them off. From all I've gathered from talking to him, and from what I've heard on the forums, I don't think he'd stand for it.
I guess the core issue here is the honesty and the integrity of the individual instructor/school owner (which is nothing new in the martial arts). I feel that if they're honest and up-front about what their credentials are, how much time they've been training, and so forth, there shouldn't be an issue with duping the public. An informed consumer should be able to make their own decisions about where they want to train.
Fact is, there are already a ton of videos and certifications out there from people who are teaching bad jj/grappling who have no business making instructors. On the other hand, Jerry's credentials are sound, and his curriculum is solid - I suppose only time will tell whether the concerns you've voiced regarding his BJJ program will come to pass.
Last edited by G.R. Bug; 11/20/2005 12:12am at .
Posted On:11/20/2005 4:25am
Style: TKD, BJJ
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
I'm really tired and saddened by the current state of TKD in the US. And I'm tired of defending TKD to people who have only seen the worst of it.
I don't want to have to do the same thing with BJJ. Not five years from now. Not ten years. Not ever.
He'll flip ya!
Posted On:11/20/2005 7:20pm
If nothing can be done to stop Jerry Laurita and other individuals from selling BJJ through mail order.Where does that put the art itself?Or what i'm trying to say is where is brazilian jujitsu likely to look in 20 years?
All of it turning into McDojo's.Or could the BJJ art ressemble Karate where there are a few full-contact schools and many shitty point-sparring ones.
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