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  1. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 3:39pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Has anyone cross-posted the link to this thread on MMA.TV?
  2. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 3:41pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    I remember the way Rorin used to do it at the old Gracie training network. Now a lot of people accuse Rorin of being money hungry, but he was able to keep higher standards then this. Here was his basic business model for a network school.

    1) Wait until he had someone who had earned a blue belt. This person would typically go to a week long training camp, roll with some buddies, go to some seminars, go out to Cali again, and at that point be given permisson to open up not a school but a training association. (Difference to be explained below) During this time Rorion would evaluate this person and make sure they were not a headcase, and were a responsible individual.

    2) The person would rent space, and start the training association. Rorian would receive a rake off from a yearly membership due. (I think it was $25 or $40 to the best of my memory, or maybe it was a one time fee) The blue belt would explain that they were a bunch of guys getting together to train and that Rorian or Royce would come by several times a year to run seminars, and do any testing that needed to be done. People were encouraged to visit the torrence school or area seminars when the Gracies were in the area.

    3) The training association charged people a reduced monthly fee (lower then a full school would charge) When Royce came by people would attend his seminars, there were no belt testing fees, whatever ranking was done was done there. He also kept an eye on things and corrected mistakes that may have crept into the curriculam.

    4) Eventually the training association would become a full school.

    The advantage in terms of quality control was that the person running the show, had a real lower level belt when they started teaching, and a clue what they were doing. They had also worked out with people who actually taught them in person before they started up. They were not dependant upon remote instruction, or training aids. (though these certainly helped) For a grappling art like BJJ which depends on touch and feel, the concept that one can test from a distance is laughable.

    There is enough BJJ out there now so this method of instruction is not needed except for $$$$.
    I think it's awesome that you write a detailed post like this but spell "Rorion" no less than three different ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    Has anyone cross-posted the link to this thread on MMA.TV?
    Given how well the JJGear thread is going I don't think this is a good idea.
  3. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 3:41pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    Has anyone cross-posted the link to this thread on MMA.TV?
    I've just been there. I don't think it's there.

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  4. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 3:45pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    Given how well the JJGear thread is going I don't think this is a good idea.
    JJGear's situation is caused by one of the staff members being affiliated with the person in question. JJGear is a relatively small community compared to MMA.TV.
  5. DuckofDeath is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 3:48pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, well, well, haven't we stirred up a nice little **** pot?

    I just got done bringing up a point on the JJG forum. What are these one week wonders going to do to keep from being embarrassed in their own classes other than refusing to roll with their students (some of whom might have previous grappling experience)? Dubious BJJ BB Gene Simco was regularly anathematized on JJG for refusing to roll with his own students lest his shortcomings be made manifest.
  6. Feryk is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 3:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    I think it's awesome that you write a detailed post like this but spell "Rorion" no less than three different ways.


    Given how well the JJGear thread is going I don't think this is a good idea.

    I'm so impressed by the value you're adding to the discussion. :love1:
  7. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 3:58pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    JJGear's situation is caused by one of the staff members being affiliated with the person in question. JJGear is a relatively small community compared to MMA.TV.
    And Bullshido's BJJ community is tiny and unskilled when compared to JJGear's. I think you guys have made a false start on your research and should avoid going further with this before you have at least spoken to Jerry Laurita or whoever is behind this, and even then you'll want to have someone with more than a blue belt making these accusations. That's why I never went through with my piece on Gene Simco.

    Furthermore, at least this has the BJJ name on it and the instructors in question are not acting like it's coming out of thin air like schools who really rip off grappling. Once students are exposed to it they should be able to evaluate the quality of instruction they're getting if they look for BJJ on the Internet or compete at a tournament.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feryk
    I'm so impressed by the value you're adding to the discussion. :love1:
    I'm positively thrilled you're here only because you're desperately hoping to see BJJ get its hull dented instead of bailing out your own sinking ship.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 11/18/2005 4:02pm at .
  8. G8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 3:59pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    The guy is a legitimate BB, as far as I know. We're not calling BS on him, we're calling BS on selling instructor certification using a business model that puts the credibility of BJJ on the line in order to do so.

    We love BJJ around here, precicely BECAUSE it has high standards and requires you to actually prove your skills against live opponents before you can progress in rank. This crap side-steps that process completely in exchange for a fast buck.
    I get that, and I agree that the issue should be looked into. That's bound to happen now, and by people who, as I said, are vastly more invested in BJJ's rep than most of the members here. Prosecuting a flame war with the US BJJ community, on the other hand, isn't going to do anything but turn a bunch of hardcore, fully legit guys against this place and anyone associated with it.

    Though I've only recently started posting, I've read this site for quite some time. I enjoy and fully endorse the busting of scam artists and McDojos--but flying off the handle at a Joe Moreira BB on the basis of a single e-mail (or casting aspersions on someone like Jerry Assad on the basis of some out-of-context photos and inaccurate secondhand information) seems like a perversion of the concept. This place performs a small but valuable service in going after outright frauds; to that end, it's important that it keep a level of informed, scholarly credibility. Engaging in speculative attacks on accomplished practitioners of reputable arts can do nothing but erode that credibilty. BJJ has historically proven well able to police itself. Getting hysterical over a hypothetical degeneration of its standards out of a sense of "mission" strikes me as both counterproductive and not a little self-important.
  9. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 4:11pm


     Style: -

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by G8
    BJJ has historically proven well able to police itself.
    BJJ has been global for only 12 or so years. That's not enough to say it "has historically proven well able to police itself".

    The problem is only going to get worse and it's not going to go away untill BJJ either stops being a for profit MA (like judo), or gets the pro **** together under one sanctioning body (like pro boxing).

    This is just the first isolated example, and is worth going after.
    But I think the real shitstorm has yet to come.
    Blackbelts or not, people will try to sell out.
    You can bitch about it, but as long as it's about the bottomline, that's how it is going to be.

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  10. Feryk is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 4:16pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    And Bullshido's BJJ community is tiny and unskilled when compared to JJGear's. I think you guys have made a false start on your research and should avoid going further with this before you have at least spoken to Jerry Laurita or whoever is behind this, and even then you'll want to have someone with more than a blue belt making these accusations. That's why I never went through with my piece on Gene Simco.

    Furthermore, at least this has the BJJ name on it and the instructors in question are not acting like it's coming out of thin air like schools who really rip off grappling. Once students are exposed to it they should be able to evaluate the quality of instruction they're getting if they look for BJJ on the Internet or compete at a tournament.
    That's a good point. Speaking to the people involved is a good idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    I'm positively thrilled you're here only because you're desperately hoping to see BJJ get its hull dented instead of bailing out your own sinking ship.
    If you think I'm sitting here rubbing my hands with glee at the plight of BJJ, you are wrong. I have respect for BJJ and what the style has done for ALL MA. I just don't have much for you.
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