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  1. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 7:35pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Respectfully, I disagree. Every martial artist will have their own criteria; a TMA stylist could just as legitimately mock MMA because most MMA do not prioritize the customs of bowing, dojo protocol, etc. In either case, it's a matter of trying to establish a hierarchy based on personal preferences, which is a waste of time - apples and oranges.
    Wrong answer ... any alleged MA that prioritizes social protocols and ancient customs above legitimate combat effectiveness is NOT a MA. They are a Cultural Arts Performer and there is a World of difference.

    There is no tiered arrangement in place ... you are either a MA or you are not. Kind of like being pregnant ... no such thing as "a little bit."

    Take a good look at the term ... it is MARTIAL (You know the def. so I'm not going to insult your intelligence) Art. The literal expanded translation is "War, Battle, or Fight waged with great skill."

    It is NOT "Artistic Expression in a Martial Medium." I'm as "traditional" a TCMA - CMA person as you are ever going to encounter. As an authentic TCMA Sifu I do what has been the standard practice since this thing began ... shitcan the stuff that no longer serves a "martial" purpose ... work in improved things as they become known.

    No "real" TCMA would have ever endured long enough to merit the "traditional" designator if it held onto all the bullshit trappings. A real MA is a Light Fighter and carries only what is needed ... what is truly useful. **** all the dumbshit ... jettison the useless, the out-dated, the things that have been improved upon.

    You won't see any Formula I Race Car Drivers tooling down the track in a Model T.
  2. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 7:37pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Ma are for fighters, not for people that read Magazines.
    Does Penthouse count?
  3. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 7:42pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JFS USA again.
  4. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 7:53pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Respectfully, I disagree. Every martial artist will have their own criteria; a TMA stylist could just as legitimately mock MMA because most MMA do not prioritize the customs of bowing, dojo protocol, etc. In either case, it's a matter of trying to establish a hierarchy based on personal preferences, which is a waste of time - apples and oranges.
    Bowing and dojo protocol are as you said CUSTOMS that are imposed by the CULTURE that partcular style was developed in. It is, however, NOT a required part for something to be a MA. The only thing required is that its MARTIAL and not CULTURAL.



    Not equal, above or below, just different. The antique (phonograph or martial art) is valuable for a different set of reasons, but that doesn't mean that it's empirically "less valuable" unless you're trying to force it to be something that it isn't.
    A Phonograph IS inferior to a Ipod in the realm of music in many areas so it is indeed LESS VALUABLE. What I was getting at is the the arguements with TMA crowd starts with them holding up the Phonograph and saying its just as good as teh Ipod. Yes both can playback music but the Ipod is clearly better at it. Look at it this way. MArtist now are way better than MArtist then. Why? Better training methods, better science in medicine and anatomy, AND the benefit of lessons learned form the past. Its one thing to learn from the pple that came before its another to be BOUND by them.

    It may well be that practitioners of some TMA make exaggerated or unproven claims about combat effectiveness, in which case, address those claims; but it does not follow that "TMA are Bullshido", nor that bowing, traditional weaponry, etc. are necessarily signs of Bullshido, which seemed to be what the original poster was saying.
    No one is saying TMA is BULLSHIDO. The BULLSHIDO part comes in with the ridiculous claims and hiding behind excuse for poor training while still keeping the idea that they are tH3 de@d!y. Look at it this way. I, Omega, JFS, and others started with so called "traditional" MA but we are also open the idea of evolving and xtraining. Which is what many TMA guys seem to be against and bury their head in the sand with the "we have it all in our art" BS when its clear they don't.
    ______
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  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 8:00pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA

    No "real" TCMA would have ever endured long enough to merit the "traditional" designator if it held onto all the bullshit trappings. A real MA is a Light Fighter and carries only what is needed ... what is truly useful. **** all the dumbshit ... jettison the useless, the out-dated, the things that have been improved upon.

    You won't see any Formula I Race Car Drivers tooling down the track in a Model T.
    I have no beef at all with modern eclectic MA and I agree with almost everything you're saying here, but does the fact that the Model T wouldn't win the race mean that all Model Ts should be junked?
  6. MEGA JESUS-SAMA is offline
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    **** you math class

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 8:05pm

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     Style: TKD, Ballet, Archery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    I have no beef at all with modern eclectic MA and I agree with almost everything you're saying here, but does the fact that the Model T wouldn't win the race mean that all Model Ts should be junked?
    Fails because Model-Ts are definite objects and not tentative theories like all martial arts should be.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 8:10pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA
    Bowing and dojo protocol are as you said CUSTOMS that are imposed by the CULTURE that partcular style was developed in. It is, however, NOT a required part for something to be a MA. The only thing required is that its MARTIAL and not CULTURAL.
    Some martial artists choose to prioritize culture, customs and history over street effectiveness, partly for the same reason that some people collect and restore antiques such as phonographs and Model Ts. It does not follow that these people are Bullshidoka.


    Quote Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA
    A Phonograph IS inferior to a Ipod in the realm of music in many areas so it is indeed LESS VALUABLE. What I was getting at is the the arguements with TMA crowd starts with them holding up the Phonograph and saying its just as good as teh Ipod. Yes both can playback music but the Ipod is clearly better at it. Look at it this way. MArtist now are way better than MArtist then. Why? Better training methods, better science in medicine and anatomy, AND the benefit of lessons learned form the past. Its one thing to learn from the pple that came before its another to be BOUND by them.
    We both agree that the phonograph is inferior in terms of effectiveness, although I will point out that a phonograph is much more effective at playing the music that is was designed to play, which was recorded on disks and rolls that are obviously incompatible with IPods. Not to stretch that analogy too far, but I'm simply pointing out that antiques have an intrinsic value that has little or nothing to do with how well they compare to the latest, cutting edge technology.


    Quote Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA
    No one is saying TMA is BULLSHIDO. The BULLSHIDO part comes in with the ridiculous claims and hiding behind excuse for poor training while still keeping the idea that they are tH3 de@d!y. Look at it this way. I, Omega, JFS, and others started with so called "traditional" MA but we are also open the idea of evolving and xtraining. Which is what many TMA guys seem to be against and bury their head in the sand with the "we have it all in our art" BS when its clear they don't.
    Sure - like I said, if those claims are made, then they should be challenged here.
    Last edited by DdlR; 11/09/2005 8:12pm at .
  8. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 8:13pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
    Fails because Model-Ts are definite objects and not tentative theories like all martial arts should be.
    Fails because tentative theories have no place in real World combat. The proper context to regard any MA system - style - method or approach is as principles.

    A theory or concept is far too large an information bundle to work with as there are numerous elements that must be in place in order for the theory or concept to be made manifest.

    How "it" forms in the moment and then dissovles when no longer needed will always bear the signature of the system - style - whatever ... but it will be without dogma.

    Art is not a theory. Art, in this context, is a living expression and as Human Beings who profess to be MA we are the vehicle through which our chosen art is made animate.
  9. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 8:21pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    I have no beef at all with modern eclectic MA and I agree with almost everything you're saying here, ...
    Are you fucking brain dead? Where, just where, did I write so much as word one about "modern eclectic MA?"

    Get this right and quit twisting my words to fit your fucked up like a soup sandwich (mis)understanding. I am a TCMA ... a formally raised up Sifu ... inside the door where NO Lofan has ever been allowed before and I'm telling you point blank ... you are WRONG.

    I'm not going to argue with you as you obviously value the sum total of your "experience" more than those of us who have been around the block more than a couple of times.

    That **** you are arguing for belongs with the goddamned Model T. In a fucking museum. Idiot.
  10. MEGA JESUS-SAMA is offline
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    **** you math class

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 8:21pm

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     Style: TKD, Ballet, Archery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Fails because tentative theories have no place in real World combat. The proper context to regard any MA system - style - method or approach is as principles.

    A theory or concept is far too large an information bundle to work with as there are numerous elements that must be in place in order for the theory or concept to be made manifest.

    How "it" forms in the moment and then dissovles when no longer needed will always bear the signature of the system - style - whatever ... but it will be without dogma.

    Art is not a theory. Art, in this context, is a living expression and as Human Beings who profess to be MA we are the vehicle through which our chosen art is made animate.
    It was a poor choice of words, but the point was that his analogy was inaccurate because Model Ts, in this case, aren't the same as a martial art. While a Model T is worth keeping around because it's historically significant, martial arts are different and shouldn't be allowed to stagnate because they're old.
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