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  1. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    May 2004
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    Melbourne
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    Posted On:
    11/07/2005 2:23am


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    High-level players have it all together; those elements do come into the game eventually, like I mentioned. They just aren't trained right from the start. In TKD, blocked attacks might still count for points if they impact hard enough to the torso, and a hard enough hit to the head will score regardless of whether your arm is in between the foot and head.

    When you join any sort of competitive martial art, you learn techniques and defences together. It just happens that WTF TKD is in that ambiguous zone of being both a "martial art" and a "combat sport", where the attacks are perfectly valid but the blocks that you learn are complete bullshit; so you have a set of "effective competition techniques" and a set of "traditional martial arts techniques". There's no such distinction in combat sports like Boxing or Judo which REQUIRE a partner to even practice. Hope this is a decent explaination. Defences in Boxing are good blocking, and parrying, for instance, and in Judo they'd be things like maintaining grips and footing, and breakfalling. All of which are practical. In TKD, the defences are silly things like overhead blocks or knife-hand blocks and whatnot. Effective blocks and defences to kicks aren't taught, aside from evasion and footwork. Guys that have been doing it long enough and fighting a lot gradually acquire a feel for it and manage to evade/block/parry/use footwork well; low to mid-level players will generally be all over the place in terms of quality.
    Last edited by lifetime; 11/07/2005 2:27am at .
    Rad ki was made up by adolescents. I do not know who created trad ki but it was not made by adolescents. your an ass dude, Im not being a little bitch you are, your past the level of a bitch. Your beyond Bitch! If im easting my time with ki and psi, then your wasting time to prove frauds, and all **** like that! -theoutsider

    Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan. -Emptyflower

    The splits, how ever, have a few martial uses. Doing the splits for me, can put my fists in testical strike range.

    dont ignore the Art for the Martial or else your just kick boxing

    Yes i am serious, there are kicks that can block punches. we have them in Moo duk kwan.
    I want to learn how to use them in case my arm gets broken in a fight.
    what would you have me do? if my arm gets broke, not block punches? -sempi-stone
  2. Shu2jack is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2005 3:07am


     Style: AMAI TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aggressive blocking just isn't taught in TKD. Unlike a lot of other competitive martial arts WTF TKD is geared to one thing and one thing only: speed. It's completely single minded in this regard, and it's pretty much the same everywhere. A lot of the stuff that could be vital in a match get left out, so you don't even develop a well-rounded base until you've done the art for a fair amount of time. Things like checking, proper blocking and good, solid footwork aren't really developed a whole lot, so you kinda end up being able to throw a really quick roundhouse kick, and that's it. Not a whole lot on defence aside from throwing a real quick back kick. That's pretty much the answer to everything; if you're getting hit, you should be hitting back rather than defending, or ideally you should be hitting first. So you go back to drilling even more speed.
    Unless you are talking just about WTF TKD, I disagree. (I am looking at your first sentence mainly).

    While I am not really going to get into a long detailed post, it really depends on what you are going for when you spar in TKD. For 12 years I sparred using point sparring (though in the class room we did mostly continuous round and hit as hard as our partner felt comfortable with) and briefly made the switch to Olympic sparring with some guys from various schools. Just about everything you said holds true for Olympic style sparring; Poor foot work (I couldn't even do their footwork drills because they were so unnatural to what I was taught), horrible blocking, no punches, couldn't defend their center line. But they had FAR more explosive power with the back leg than what I see in most point sparring guys. Pretty much the entire time I was sparring them I was going "What the ****?" with how they were sparring and they were going "what the ****?" with how I was sparring. I guess my whole point is it depends on the TKD.

    As for aggressive blocking...as much as the ATA is hated, it does teach those kinds of things. Technically it is illegal to "strike" the leg, but every black belt knows how to do it without getting caught and they pass it on to the color belts when they spar them. Basically the most common complain heard from the people who start sparring is the amount of bruises on their forearms and shins.

    When you join any sort of competitive martial art, you learn techniques and defences together. It just happens that WTF TKD is in that ambiguous zone of being both a "martial art" and a "combat sport", where the attacks are perfectly valid but the blocks that you learn are complete bullshit; so you have a set of "effective competition techniques" and a set of "traditional martial arts techniques". There's no such distinction in combat sports like Boxing or Judo which REQUIRE a partner to even practice. Hope this is a decent explaination. Defences in Boxing are good blocking, and parrying, for instance, and in Judo they'd be things like maintaining grips and footing, and breakfalling. All of which are practical. In TKD, the defences are silly things like overhead blocks or knife-hand blocks and whatnot. Effective blocks and defences to kicks aren't taught, aside from evasion and footwork. Guys that have been doing it long enough and fighting a lot gradually acquire a feel for it and manage to evade/block/parry/use footwork well; low to mid-level players will generally be all over the place in terms of quality.
    I just wanted to say not to knock the knifehand blocks and such. While not ring effective, I have used them in physical confrontations to success. The situations in the ring and the situations out side the ring are totally different. This maybe part of the problem TKD has. If you want to teach people how to fight, you have to teach one thing. If you want to teach them to compete, you have to teach them another thing. Instead, most instructors teach everything so a student doesn't do much of anything well until many years of practice.
  3. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2005 3:27am


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, Shu2jack I was talking about WTF. Our sparring is extremely limited, but for what we do I say quite confidently that we do it well. Everything you said holds true for WTF, except for the footwork, because I do believe that WTF footwork is quite deft; it's just not taught as well as it should be in a lot of places. I do have the benefit of training under Olympic medalists and Olympian-level coaches, so nimble footwork is something that you pick up eventually. Other than that, punching is quite honestly the worst thing you'd ever see, and blocking is plain ridiculous. It tends to rely too much on putting your hands betwen the target and the attack you see coming, which is fair enough, but in reality it's horrible because it counts on you seeing the attack, reacting to it and then intercepting it. There's very little emphasis on defending yourself against the attack that you DON'T see coming, which is usually the one that does the most damage.

    This isn't my coach's fault; he teaches university students and hobbyists to compete in a sport, rather than to defend themselves or enter kickboxing contests. He's a great all-round fighter because he came up through the "old system" of TKD, and there's a lot he could teach me about kickboxing in general, but he doesn't because sport is our priority and that's what we train for.
    Rad ki was made up by adolescents. I do not know who created trad ki but it was not made by adolescents. your an ass dude, Im not being a little bitch you are, your past the level of a bitch. Your beyond Bitch! If im easting my time with ki and psi, then your wasting time to prove frauds, and all **** like that! -theoutsider

    Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan. -Emptyflower

    The splits, how ever, have a few martial uses. Doing the splits for me, can put my fists in testical strike range.

    dont ignore the Art for the Martial or else your just kick boxing

    Yes i am serious, there are kicks that can block punches. we have them in Moo duk kwan.
    I want to learn how to use them in case my arm gets broken in a fight.
    what would you have me do? if my arm gets broke, not block punches? -sempi-stone
  4. Shu2jack is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2005 3:53am


     Style: AMAI TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It must have been the schools I went to. I didn't consider their footwork very good.

    I agree with you though. Most of my matches with the olympic sparring-type guys went like this.

    Me: Circling with my hands up so their uber-fast back leg round kicks don't hurt me while I inch my way in and using fast lead leg front kicks as a jab.

    Them: Watch me move and bounce around with their hands down.

    Them: Suddenly attack with a back leg roundhouse.

    Me: Charge in to jam the kick and let loose with the punches to their exposed body.

    Instructor supervision the match: JACK! You need to punch harder! Follow through!

    Me: *Thinking to myself* The guy is wearing 20 inch thick body armour and has forward momentum/low stance afterwards from his round kicks. There is no fucking way I am going to be able to deliever "trembling shock" or hurt him with a punch.

    That is pretty much how all my matches went. Afterwards the guys tried to show ME how to punch. I just think they should try sparring without a chest protector.
    /rant
  5. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2005 4:30am


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's the truth. I don't get how people think that the way they fight in sparring should be the same way they fight when they're facing a different ruleset, or different types of fighters. It doesn't really occur to them that if they're facing a fighter that uses different types of attacks, it might just be a good idea to keep the hands up a little bit higher in case you get caught with some totally ninja **** that you didn't see coming. You can't point-spar when you're actually fighting, but when the chest protectors come off you still see people trying to do just that. It's somewhat depressing to throw punch after punch to the liver/kidneys and have them not feel a thing because of the chest protector.
    Rad ki was made up by adolescents. I do not know who created trad ki but it was not made by adolescents. your an ass dude, Im not being a little bitch you are, your past the level of a bitch. Your beyond Bitch! If im easting my time with ki and psi, then your wasting time to prove frauds, and all **** like that! -theoutsider

    Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan. -Emptyflower

    The splits, how ever, have a few martial uses. Doing the splits for me, can put my fists in testical strike range.

    dont ignore the Art for the Martial or else your just kick boxing

    Yes i am serious, there are kicks that can block punches. we have them in Moo duk kwan.
    I want to learn how to use them in case my arm gets broken in a fight.
    what would you have me do? if my arm gets broke, not block punches? -sempi-stone
  6. Shu2jack is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
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    Posted On:
    11/07/2005 4:48am


     Style: AMAI TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can't point-spar when you're actually fighting, but when the chest protectors come off you still see people trying to do just that.
    That is one of the reasons I really hate about the ATA adopting chest protectors. I find that I allow myself to take shots I would not have if I was sparring without a chest protector like I use to. I have to constantly remind myself to act like I am not wearing one, which is hard because it restricts hand movement somewhat.

    Some of my more senior students thought watching me spar for the first 2 weeks when we introduced chest protectors was funny as hell. Apparently I constantly had a pissed off look on my face because I couldn't do what I was used to and I got knocked on my ass a few times due to the chest protector. Normally when someone punches me on one side of my chest, I roll that side back to take some of the edge off of the attack and use the side of my body that is rolling forward to deliver a fast counter attack. Normally that works really well with body punches (for me at least) because the pain only hits a certain spot. With a chest protect the impact is dispersed over a large area and instead of being able to roll with the punches your entire body is jarred back. Needless to say it took me a while to adjust.

    It's somewhat depressing to throw punch after punch to the liver/kidneys and have them not feel a thing because of the chest protector.
    You got that right. I was depressed for a week because I thought the punching I learned for the past 11 years really sucked. Then I realized that a thick hogu+forward momentum+solid stance= your punch to the mid section not doing jack. Finally, I sparred some guys without chest protectors again and used the same punches. Yep, it is the hogu.
  7. Slydermv is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2005 8:15am


     Style: WTF TKD, BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Limey
    A lot of those kicks looked like the attacker was off balance and struggling to get height on them to reach the other guys chest, let alone the head. Were you guys both wearing black belts? I hope it's the shitty quality of my monitor 'cus if you're wearing a BB you should be a LOT sharper with those techniques.

    Chest to chest and the guy in blue goes for a spinning back kick at one point? WTF?

    When the ref restarts you guys you both put your hands "up" and then drop them below the belt when you fight...what's the point if putting them up if you're not going to keep them up?

    Arms flailing all over the place when throwing kicks?

    Losing balance when the kicks connect? What's with that? I guess it's a point sparring thing.

    To me that looked like a couple of yellow belts (at best orange belts) going at it.

    Total respect for putting the vid up and you'd probably kick my ass due to a three year break from training but that's not saying much because my stand-up sucks ass at the moment.
    No no... no black belts there. I'm a blue. This is my first comp.

    *looks at the remainder of the comments and summarizes to himself*

    You suck... so train harder. ok!
  8. Slydermv is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2005 8:26am


     Style: WTF TKD, BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    Uninspired technique. It was just empty. Your defense was nonexistent, counting more on his missing than any action of yours and your offense was terribly sub par. The backside kick strat is ok if you can KO with them, but if you're gonna miss, its a losing strategy. Also, you need to watch the stances a bit. He's got the open/closed thing down and is kicking to the proper side for his points. You aren't.

    To fix that ****, I'd say to work on a shield all day, so when you throw the back side kicks, they go down. If you wanna play like that, you should be getting KOs.
    Hey! I almost took head head off with a jumping backkick near the beginning of the second round.

    But your right. It's my best kick though, and my mind set going in was to counter any turning kick he threw with one... hence I got point fucked until I landed my first back kick in the beginning of the match.

    I also noticed I kept stepping into him... for I don't know what reason, rather then back stepping and attacking or something similar. I get mad at myself everytime I watch it.

    I'd like to think I'm better then what that video shows, and I'm having an off day, but who knows. Maybe I do need to just keep training and get more experiance. I have another comp in 6 months so I'll have to see hwat happens... Maybe I can throw more then one kick in sucession even... like a combo....!!!

    To others...

    As for my hands down.... I really have to work on that. I've been trying but they seem to fall to chest level all the time.

    Blocking with elbows is valid. Gonna have to work on that more soon as I get back to training.

    My flexability sucks... always has. Will continiue to work on the stretching for sure though. Shoulda seen my 2 years ago if you think that's bad. But I also think part of the leaning back thing is me reaching.

    Chin up... yeah... looking over it... I don't know where that comes from. I'll work on that....

    Thanks for the comments.... please continue :) :adora:
  9. Slydermv is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2005 8:29am


     Style: WTF TKD, BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    I take it aggressive blocking is against the rules in TKd (shin checking, elbow checking)?
    You can block with elbows... but checking kicks with your own legs *I think* is illegal. It copnstitues striking below the belt...
  10. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2005 9:30am


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Koreans do it all the time. There's nothing wrong with checking with your feet, as long as you follow it up and don't make it obvious that you're kicking them in the legs.

    You can check by bringing your knee up when they kick and do checks to the hips and thighs, and then follow it up with headshots. Some guys deliberately check or kick low when doing a double so that the first kick off-balances the opponent and the second follows up for a knockout strike. With a double, the first roundhouse usually hits the thigh, and the second to the body/head.
    Rad ki was made up by adolescents. I do not know who created trad ki but it was not made by adolescents. your an ass dude, Im not being a little bitch you are, your past the level of a bitch. Your beyond Bitch! If im easting my time with ki and psi, then your wasting time to prove frauds, and all **** like that! -theoutsider

    Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan. -Emptyflower

    The splits, how ever, have a few martial uses. Doing the splits for me, can put my fists in testical strike range.

    dont ignore the Art for the Martial or else your just kick boxing

    Yes i am serious, there are kicks that can block punches. we have them in Moo duk kwan.
    I want to learn how to use them in case my arm gets broken in a fight.
    what would you have me do? if my arm gets broke, not block punches? -sempi-stone
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