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  1. thomaspaine is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 2:55am


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The x-guard/butterfly guard in mma

    What are your opinions on the x-guard and butterfly guard for use in mma? I ask because I have recently found myself building my guard game around the x and butterfly, but I don't do a lot of mma training so I don't know if this is such a great idea if ever I make the transition to mma. I understand that these are pretty transitory guards, but I don't see a lot of butterfly or x guard sweeps/subs being used in mma and I was wondering if this is due to people simply not knowing the more exotic guards, or because the guards are ill suited towards mma. Your thoughts?
  2. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 3:52am

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Negative on these. Too risky *IF* your opponent is evenly matched. There is too much opportunity for your opponent to land bombs on your face.

    Butterfly guard has its uses, but see Genki v Royler of the proper way to defeat the butterfly guard. Stand up and knee them in the fucking face.
  3. Gumby is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 1:21pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Agreed on the "if" part. If you're fighting someone who's worth their salt on the ground, those positions can be very painfull (and perhaps cost you the fight). Butterfly guard isnt that bad if you can manage to set it up the proper way (when you can keep your opponents hips out and off balance him).

    I have seen both positions work well in MMA too. Busta has a nice sweep game from his butterfly guard and Nog used a variation of the X-guard to sweep Kharitonov in their fight.

    I guess it depends how intelligently you employ the game- never say never. Royler got knocked out when he tried it with Genki, but he was going to get knocked out anyways.
  4. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 2:19pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think either position would be one you'd want to "hang out" in.

    Both seem like they could be employed in a fluid manner (i.e. going from half guard to x-guard/sweep), but not something you'd want to use as a static position. In other words, you're not safe but the benefits might momentarily outweigh the costs if you can use the position to immediately attempt a sub or sweep. Then again, both positions have always seemed to me like they were a lot more fluid than others in straight grappling, as well.

    Edit: This is off-topic, but ever since I read THIS thread, I've been looking for kesa being used as a momentary holding/transition position, and I've seen it used fairly often. Just noting that Bullshido has helped make me more observant of what's going on with the ground game in MMA. Thanks guys.
    Last edited by Cassius; 11/06/2005 2:25pm at .
  5. thomaspaine is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 3:52pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I rolled with some mma guys today and I almost pulled off a butterfly sweep, which now that I think about it would have been a good transition into the x-guard to see if I got pounded. Other than that though, when I was in the guard I found myself mainly just using closed guard and trying to control the head and arm. I wasn't really able to do anything offensive from there though except escape to my knees and one near triangle armbar.

    It'd be nice if our bjj school did more mma and no-gi rather than than only once a week. I keep finding that most of my sweep and submission setups start off from gi chokes, and feel a little lost without it when I'm in the guard.
  6. Kengou is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 4:51pm


     Style: TKD; BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anyone tried Eddie Bravo's rubber guard in an MMA scenario?
  7. JohnnyS is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 6:37pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've used the rubber-guard in MMA training and I liked it. It's good at keeping me protected from punches and setting up my opponent for subs.
  8. MuKen is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 6:56pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree, butterfly seems viable if you're controlling your opponent well, and keep him from standing with sweep threats. As for x-guard, it doesn't seem like you'd be able to get there without eating some bombs.
  9. Gringo Grande is offline
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    Ninjer Pile on Me! Hurr!

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 8:39pm

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     Style: Bad KB, Worse MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My pesonal experience is that if you are flexible and have a certain degree of strength that teh rubber guard is a very viable method to keep someone controlled. Then again I suck so it doesn't matter much!

    Gringo Grande
    MMA Record vs Llamas 0-1-0
    (The Llama bit my junk but the ref didn't see it).
  10. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/07/2005 12:08am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    I wouldn't base my game around gimmicks. Butterfly seems like it would be OK if you ke[t active, but x guard isn't even used much in BJJ comp. Sounds like a good way to get beatdown. Not that I know much about MMA, but still...
    I've just recently started playing with x-guard as a transition from half guard, and while it's a new toy for me to play with for now (I've always focused on the basic positions, never much of the "gimmicky" stuff), I don't know what I'll think about it in a couple weeks, let alone 3 or 4 years.

    I think it is there in MMA if **** happens and you just end up in it, but I don't think it's a position anyone would actively work for or want to be in. Then again, I don't know all that much about MMA, either.
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