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  1. Mor Sao is online now
    Mor Sao's Avatar

    Nothing for Show, All for use

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 7:27am

    supporting member
     Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Hand Conditioning: Iron Palm, Wrapping of the hands, Bag Gloves??

    Brothers and sisters,

    Sitting here at work with the cobwebs inside my head as of yet still there as my Oolong cha sits and strengthens.

    Wanted to ask a question as we seem to have a nice cross section of people who condition their hands in a variety of ways.

    I do Iron Palm and hit various things with my hands(lightly) to condition and use a medicine.

    I know people who dont do any conditioning and use their bag training time to make their fists strong, though I think the wrapping of the hand makes it more "soft" than conditioned.

    I have yet to break my hands though I have had some nasty sprained and dislocated fingers over the years.

    I wanted to ask the rogues in the gallery how they felt about training the hands no matter the tradition.

    Wrapping versus non wrapping. Hitting of objects versus knuckle pushups etc.

    Comments?

    Later,

    Dale







  2. Method2Madness is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 8:42am


     Style: BJJ and MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas
    Brothers and sisters,


    I know people who dont do any conditioning and use their bag training time to make their fists strong, though I think the wrapping of the hand makes it more "soft" than conditioned.

    Dale
    well i was taught that wrapping the hands was ment more for the protection of the wrist's, so they dont get jammed while punching a bag.

    i think this is the wrong forum for your question, but i may be wrong. i guess we'll find out if they move this thread to the " Techniques and tactics" forum.
  3. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 8:50am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I do knuckle push ups.
    Padded post hitting ( makiwara)
    I hit the bag with bag gloves, wraps only and bareknuckle.
    I hit the spar-pro ( target dummy, thick rubber with metal pipe in the middle) bareknukle.

    I have only broken my hand (knuckles) once, breaking a slab I punched though it and hit the floor, the floor hit back.
  4. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 8:54am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Occasional knuckle pushups and pad/bagwork with gloves but without wraps.

    I don't know if it's optimal, it's just what I do.
  5. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 9:11am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas
    Wanted to ask a question as we seem to have a nice cross section of people who condition their hands in a variety of ways.
    I've trained IP and Phoenix Eye for many years and although I don't necessarily recommend it for everyone I think it has it's place.

    An interesting, to me, phenomena is the sensory feedback I get when I hit someone while wearing MMA Gloves with the hand I forged. There is little to no sensation at all through the hand - wrist - forearm. It's only in the shoulder and waist that the impact feedback is felt.

    The worse injury I received was several years back when I punched a hole through a suspended coconut with Phoenix Eye. The edges of the hole were very sharp and it cut up the outer surfaces of my finger. Stupid to have done and I learned my lesson.

    Something I did back in the day when I was a lab rat in a Human Performance Lab was to have both of my hands X-rayed in order to compare the forged vs. non forged hand. Even the X-ray Tech who was not a Radiologist immediately picked up on the difference. The forged hand reflected much greater bone density and it tied in well to a study being conducted on Paratroopers at the time. Repeated impact trauman results in micro-fractures and is the Human Condition's normal response to injury is that it seeks to re-enforce the injured area above and beyond the pre-injured condition ... over compensates. In IP this translated to an abundance of build up at all the micro-fracture sites.

    The hyper density bone pattern looks like lattice work in IP & a dumb bell in PEF.

    "Wraps" and such also have their place I think. The weakest link in a chain kind of approach. Sometimes it could benefit from taking the stress off of the wrist in order to allow for safe additional work.

    If someone is doing or planning on doing any kind of gloved hard contact sparring it seems reasonable to become comfortable with wearing them while banging away. Any change in the transfer of force surface area "plays" a bit different in the body and in the interest of reducing injury risk to me it just makes sense to preload this part.
  6. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 9:19am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    I've trained IP and Phoenix Eye for many years and although I don't necessarily recommend it for everyone I think it has it's place.

    An interesting, to me, phenomena is the sensory feedback I get when I hit someone while wearing MMA Gloves with the hand I forged. There is little to no sensation at all through the hand - wrist - forearm. It's only in the shoulder and waist that the impact feedback is felt.

    The worse injury I received was several years back when I punched a hole through a suspended coconut with Phoenix Eye. The edges of the hole were very sharp and it cut up the outer surfaces of my finger. Stupid to have done and I learned my lesson.

    Something I did back in the day when I was a lab rat in a Human Performance Lab was to have both of my hands X-rayed in order to compare the forged vs. non forged hand. Even the X-ray Tech who was not a Radiologist immediately picked up on the difference. The forged hand reflected much greater bone density and it tied in well to a study being conducted on Paratroopers at the time. Repeated impact trauman results in micro-fractures and is the Human Condition's normal response to injury is that it seeks to re-enforce the injured area above and beyond the pre-injured condition ... over compensates. In IP this translated to an abundance of build up at all the micro-fracture sites.

    The hyper density bone pattern looks like lattice work in IP & a dumb bell in PEF.

    "Wraps" and such also have their place I think. The weakest link in a chain kind of approach. Sometimes it could benefit from taking the stress off of the wrist in order to allow for safe additional work.

    If someone is doing or planning on doing any kind of gloved hard contact sparring it seems reasonable to become comfortable with wearing them while banging away. Any change in the transfer of force surface area "plays" a bit different in the body and in the interest of reducing injury risk to me it just makes sense to preload this part.

    And how are your hands?
    Fine?
    Occasional pain, numbness, perhaps tingling?
    Did you ever use that Dit da Jow stuff?
  7. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 10:00am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Something I did back in the day when I was a lab rat in a Human Performance Lab was to have both of my hands X-rayed in order to compare the forged vs. non forged hand. Even the X-ray Tech who was not a Radiologist immediately picked up on the difference. The forged hand reflected much greater bone density and it tied in well to a study being conducted on Paratroopers at the time.
    Citation? Just to add to my list.

    FWIW, similar differences can be found in tennis players - the racket hand and arm will be noticably larger, with respect to bone mass.

    Repeated impact trauman results in micro-fractures and is the Human Condition's normal response to injury is that it seeks to re-enforce the injured area above and beyond the pre-injured condition ... over compensates. In IP this translated to an abundance of build up at all the micro-fracture sites.
    Kinda, but not really - bone does adapt to stress, but I'm not so sure microfractures are the best way of inducing this.

    Bone is capable of transmitting mechanical strain to cells that deposit bone matrix. The rules for adaptation have been studied well enough to provide a couple rules-of-thumb:

    1. Dynamic loading is more effective than static loading. This means that hitting something will have more effect on bone mass than knuckle-pushups (however, the knuckle pushups may better develop wrist musculature).

    2. Only a few reps are necessary to induce adaptation. About 20-30, if I remember correctly.

    3. Bone becomes desensitized to strain. More than about 50 reps is of little added benefit, unless bone is given time to rest. In practial terms, if your daily routine includes 100 strikes; better to do 50 in the morning and 50 in the afternoon, than to do all 100 at once.

    Caveat - I'm writing this mostly from memory. A couple-three months back, as I was thinking about ways to finish my degree, I was looking at bone deposition, in relation to MA training. I pulled up several articles and visited a good bit the the exercise physiologist on campus - he's been involved in some bone deposition studies on campus, and there's an ongoing bone-health project; but I'm not sure it fits my talents and interests, so I haven't given the problem much thought lately.

    That, and I need to get a better system for tracking references - I can't find the studies I'm thinking of.

    Oop - just found one (repeated an internet search) - this one is fairly straightforward and simple:
    http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/39/4/188
  8. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 10:19am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    Citation? Just to add to my list.

    FWIW, similar differences can be found in tennis players - the racket hand and arm will be noticably larger, with respect to bone mass.



    Kinda, but not really - bone does adapt to stress, but I'm not so sure microfractures are the best way of inducing this.

    Bone is capable of transmitting mechanical strain to cells that deposit bone matrix. The rules for adaptation have been studied well enough to provide a couple rules-of-thumb:

    1. Dynamic loading is more effective than static loading. This means that hitting something will have more effect on bone mass than knuckle-pushups (however, the knuckle pushups may better develop wrist musculature).

    2. Only a few reps are necessary to induce adaptation. About 20-30, if I remember correctly.

    3. Bone becomes desensitized to strain. More than about 50 reps is of little added benefit, unless bone is given time to rest. In practial terms, if your daily routine includes 100 strikes; better to do 50 in the morning and 50 in the afternoon, than to do all 100 at once.

    Caveat - I'm writing this mostly from memory. A couple-three months back, as I was thinking about ways to finish my degree, I was looking at bone deposition, in relation to MA training. I pulled up several articles and visited a good bit the the exercise physiologist on campus - he's been involved in some bone deposition studies on campus, and there's an ongoing bone-health project; but I'm not sure it fits my talents and interests, so I haven't given the problem much thought lately.

    That, and I need to get a better system for tracking references - I can't find the studies I'm thinking of.

    Oop - just found one (repeated an internet search) - this one is fairly straightforward and simple:
    http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/39/4/188

    Good work.
  9. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 10:38am


     Style: Mostly weights now...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas
    I do Iron Palm and hit various things with my hands(lightly) to condition and use a medicine.

    Later,

    Dale



    Which formula(s) do you use?
  10. grond is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 11:43am


     Style: wingy chingy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Something I did back in the day when I was a lab rat in a Human Performance Lab was to have both of my hands X-rayed in order to compare the forged vs. non forged hand. Even the X-ray Tech who was not a Radiologist immediately picked up on the difference. The forged hand reflected much greater bone density and it tied in well to a study being conducted on Paratroopers at the time. Repeated impact trauman results in micro-fractures and is the Human Condition's normal response to injury is that it seeks to re-enforce the injured area above and beyond the pre-injured condition ... over compensates. In IP this translated to an abundance of build up at all the micro-fracture sites.

    The hyper density bone pattern looks like lattice work in IP & a dumb bell in PEF.
    What's the rationale behind training only one hand?
    "It does not matter who the master is. It does not matter what the face looks like. The masters are of the Qimen school of qigong/meditation which is related to Zen. The master wears white robes, and the predecessor master wears bright gold robes. The qimen school travels the univers and is not restricted to what paradise they live in. It has many masters" -Serious Harm
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