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  1. lawdog is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2005 10:42am

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Excellent video daGorilla! Snatching 330 lbs at what, 180 lb. body weight? Awesome!
  2. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2005 10:47am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Isn't that Dimas the greek olympic lifter?
  3. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2005 8:35pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ronin,

    Yea. In that book the bag work is listed along with their other training. I was seriously impressed by how long most pro boxers can jump rope. Most guys spend more time jumping rope than they do on the heavy bag. I had not jumped rope in a while and after adding it back in this summer -- well, it is a lot harder to do than I remembered. That exercise builds some endurance.

    >The heavy bag puts alot of stress on your joints,
    >to overdue it is counter-productive. Most fighters
    >will spend more time on the TOTAL workout than
    >on a specific part of it.

    I think Roy Jones Jr. had the most extreme training in that book. I put his 50 minutes (heavy bag, floor to ceiling bag, speed bag) on there as an extreme example. Like, if you aren't training as much as Jones Jr. then you'll live. The other guys in the book didn't spend as much time on the bags. I guess I should have said that. Most guys just did a few rounds on each bag.

    Anyway, you are right. The heavy bag is for learning more than it is for endurance. It's for practicing your form with some resistance. It's not really meant to be an endurance exercise so much.

    I think I spent too much time kicking stuff when I was younger. My knees don't feel as solid as when I was a kid. I agree about it putting too much stress on the joints. There is a fine line between building endurance and deteriorating your own health. I should have maybe not jumped off of so many things either.
    Last edited by 9chambers; 11/02/2005 8:47pm at .
  4. Equipoise is offline
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    Certified Fitness Trainer

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2005 8:51pm

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     Style: Chemical Assistance

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daGorilla
    Body building style workouts are the worst as far as being complimentary to martial arts. Squats and Deadlifts (and other Olympic lifts) are much better, so it's great that you have those in your workouts.

    IF strength, endurance, a strong cardiovascular system is your goal (and it should be, for martial arts), check out the crossfit (www.crossfit.com) and/or similar methods -- they are perfect for taxing your body both aerobically and anaerobically, and doing it very fast and efficiently. Bodyweight exercises are a good addition (and make up a lot of crossfit workouts as well, like Burpees, dips, pullups, pushups, etc.). Bag work is an excellent addition to your regimen, so good on ya'!

    As for bench press -- I'd reduce it. There are tons of superior, more general exercises. It takes much greater overall strength (legs, back, core) to Clean/Snatch 2X or more your body weight, which translates into much greater, REAL WORLD overall power, than having a big bench press.

    Check out this video: http://media.putfile.com/Ironmind_1993_Dimas

    ... and then ask yourself what real strength really is. :)

    And remember -- routine is the enemy! If you've got your workouts carefully 'scripted' out, your body will just adapt and you'll start to realize less gains. (Again, I refer to Crossfit and their affiliates for examples of high intensity, strength/endurance workouts.)

    Oh, and another thing: DON'T OVERLOOK FLEXIBILITY!!!! Stretch regularly -- 3-5 times per week, and try to improve your flexibility -- don't just do a half-ass 10 minute routine after a workout. Good flexibility pays dividends, my friends, in every aspect of martial arts and life in general.

    -daGorilla
    Crossfit sucks. Don't take anything away from record holders for bench. Dimas isn't benching 600+. Routine is not the enemy. The body needs certain durations for certain activities to allow for CNS adaptation.
  5. Hannibal is offline

    Grandmaster Sensei of Village Idiocy

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2005 11:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kyokushin and Judo.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 9chambers
    ronin,

    Yea. In that book the bag work is listed along with their other training. I was seriously impressed by how long most pro boxers can jump rope. Most guys spend more time jumping rope than they do on the heavy bag. I had not jumped rope in a while and after adding it back in this summer -- well, it is a lot harder to do than I remembered. That exercise builds some endurance.

    >The heavy bag puts alot of stress on your joints,
    >to overdue it is counter-productive. Most fighters
    >will spend more time on the TOTAL workout than
    >on a specific part of it.

    I think Roy Jones Jr. had the most extreme training in that book. I put his 50 minutes (heavy bag, floor to ceiling bag, speed bag) on there as an extreme example. Like, if you aren't training as much as Jones Jr. then you'll live. The other guys in the book didn't spend as much time on the bags. I guess I should have said that. Most guys just did a few rounds on each bag.

    Anyway, you are right. The heavy bag is for learning more than it is for endurance. It's for practicing your form with some resistance. It's not really meant to be an endurance exercise so much.

    I think I spent too much time kicking stuff when I was younger. My knees don't feel as solid as when I was a kid. I agree about it putting too much stress on the joints. There is a fine line between building endurance and deteriorating your own health. I should have maybe not jumped off of so many things either.


    Okay. Now 9 Chambers I'm not flamming you but I do have a question.

    If you practice a striking art and if you don't work the the heavy bag - what the **** else are you supposed to do ? Punch and kick thin air ? Just do kata or sparring ? WHats the answer ? Striking the heavy bag and pad work is essential for fitness and technique.
    Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
  6. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2005 11:54pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's a pretty damn good excercise hannibal. I suppose it could be done without, but ... I don't know how you'd make up for it.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  7. A.D.D is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2005 8:45am

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     Style: Fish Oil

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal
    Okay. Now 9 Chambers I'm not flamming you but I do have a question.

    If you practice a striking art and if you don't work the the heavy bag - what the **** else are you supposed to do ? Punch and kick thin air ? Just do kata or sparring ? WHats the answer ? Striking the heavy bag and pad work is essential for fitness and technique.
    Quote Originally Posted by 9chambers
    Anyway, you are right. The heavy bag is for learning more than it is for endurance. It's for practicing your form with some resistance. It's not really meant to be an endurance exercise so much.
    He never said not to work the heavy bag.
  8. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    11/03/2005 3:40pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Han,

    >If you practice a striking art and if you don't work
    >the the heavy bag - what the **** else are you
    >supposed to do ?

    Which of my posts said not to use the heavy bag? I said it isn't an ENDURANCE exercise. It's instead a training tool. You use the heavy bag for 15-20 minutes to practice punching. You don't do it to lose weight or build up endurance in your arms. It can be a valuable part of an overall endurance program (like 20 minutes out of your hour and a half training session) but anyone using the heavy bag for their cardio is not using the heavy bag for the right thing. It is for learning how to strike and to practice striking at full power with resistance. It is not the same thing as an eliptical trainer. It is a high impact exercise. It's also largely anaerobic in its level of intensity.

    Ali, Jones and every other boxer listed used shadow boxing, focus mits, speed bags, sparring and various drills to practice punching without the heavy bag. If you couldn't think of any of those alternatives then.. I'm sorry. I mean, focus mits are great for learning to hit targets without full resistance and impact. Shadow boxing is good for endurance. If the heavy bag could do it all then guys wouldn't do any of that other stuff.

    p.s. If you want to impress the trolls, pick on someone who hasn't been training a good 20 years more than you.
    Last edited by 9chambers; 11/03/2005 3:53pm at .
  9. Ender is offline
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    Not Enough Weight

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    Posted On:
    11/03/2005 9:27pm

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     Style: BJJ, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Akira--
    I'm definitely not a Crossfit nuthugger (although there are some of them out there), but would you mind elaborating on your problems w/ the CF methodology? Esp in regards to MA training. I can see avoiding Crossfit when attempting to increase absolute maximal strength (which is, as you've stated many, many times your primary goal) or hypertrophy, but the original poster was looking for some endurance training, and CF definitely hits the anaerobic metabolic pathways pretty hard. Assuming he's able to perform most of the exercises, why wouldn't it be beneficial to his endurance/MA performance?
    "Even if one's head were to be suddenly cut off, he should be able to perform one more action with certainty."
    -Yamamoto Tsunetomo
  10. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/05/2005 10:34am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 9chambers
    Ali, Jones and every other boxer listed used shadow boxing, focus mits, speed bags, sparring and various drills to practice punching without the heavy bag.
    Hmmmm, I've been bad. Too much use of kicking the heavy bag for aerobic and endurance. But then gassing after a minute and a half isn't what you mean, is it?
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
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