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  1. Varangian Guard is offline

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    Oct 2005
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    Posted On:
    10/30/2005 10:20pm


     Style: Shuai Jiao/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Would a low intensity endurance workout every evening be ok?

    After attending a few Shuai Chiao classes, I've noticed my endurance is horrible. I think I can squat alright (215 for 3 reps), but for holding a horse stance, I can barely get 45 seconds.

    I have a good powerliftin routine, based on the Westside Barbell workout.

    Would it be ok to add a low intensity endurance workout to that, maybe every evening?

    I was thinking maybe holding a horse stance close to failure, hindu squat or bodyweight squats to (or close to) failure, something like that. And maybe add in a set of pushups. Everynight, maybe lasting 10 minutes or so; would that be too much, overtraining?

    And my second question would be about hitting the bag. How long should I go at it? I'm not planning to do so, at least not now (I don't even have a heavy bag right now). But just for references sake, would 30 minutes everynight in addition to a powerlifting workout routine be good? Not overtraining?

    Thanks in advance.
  2. Hannibal is offline

    Grandmaster Sensei of Village Idiocy

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    Posted On:
    10/30/2005 10:38pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kyokushin and Judo.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Firstly, bodyweight exercise like hindu squats and holding a low hoarse riding stance are bread and butter conditioing for martial arts. Yes you should do them.

    Secondly, with regards to striking a heavy bag. Aim for as many rounds as possible. Start off with 3 X 3 min rounds and eventually build up to 10 rounds. Your boxing coach should be able to tell you this.

    Thirdly, I wouldn't do bag work on the same day you lift weights. All this extra training is good but recovery time is a must. How many times per week do you do martial arts/ lift weights ?
    Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
  3. Varangian Guard is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/30/2005 11:05pm


     Style: Shuai Jiao/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for your post.

    Well, for now:

    Monday - Bench (pecs, triceps, shoulders)
    Tuesday - Deadlift (back, biceps)
    Thursday - Bench (like Monday, except lower intensity and lighter weight)
    Friday - Squat (lower body)

    I have work my abs/obliques on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays usually. A combined 10 sets (high rep; endurance) for them.

    I just started going to Shuai Chiao classes, which are every Sunday. I'm only going for 90 minutes now (4 - 5:30 PM), but in the future, I may add to that; perhaps even staying for the advanced classes (5:30 - 7 PM) and sparring (7 PM til they're tired) Thats the only martial art training I'm having right now.

    --

    So yeah, it seems my days are pretty filled up for now. Any thoughts on how I should fit in the extra endurance work in the evenings? Since they're mostly working the slow twitch muscle fibers, and my strength workout is mostly fast twitch; it shouldn't really be overtraining I don't think.
    Last edited by Varangian Guard; 10/30/2005 11:07pm at .
  4. Hannibal is offline

    Grandmaster Sensei of Village Idiocy

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 12:01am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kyokushin and Judo.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So your doing Martial arts ( Shuai Chiao) once per week and lifting weights four times per week.

    I'm not going to pass judgement on your weight training routine. ALot of other muscle heads here who lift will do that and offer advice on the side.

    All I can suggest is cut back your strength training to two times per week. You don't need four. Have one other day where you work bodyweight exercises only. Now thats 4 solid workouts per week which should be plenty.
    Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
  5. lawdog is offline

    Middleweight

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    Florida
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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 9:21am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Varangian Guard
    After attending a few Shuai Chiao classes, I've noticed my endurance is horrible. I think I can squat alright (215 for 3 reps), but for holding a horse stance, I can barely get 45 seconds.

    I have a good powerliftin routine, based on the Westside Barbell workout.

    Would it be ok to add a low intensity endurance workout to that, maybe every evening?

    I was thinking maybe holding a horse stance close to failure, hindu squat or bodyweight squats to (or close to) failure, something like that. And maybe add in a set of pushups. Everynight, maybe lasting 10 minutes or so; would that be too much, overtraining?

    And my second question would be about hitting the bag. How long should I go at it? I'm not planning to do so, at least not now (I don't even have a heavy bag right now). But just for references sake, would 30 minutes everynight in addition to a powerlifting workout routine be good? Not overtraining?

    Thanks in advance.
    Doing those body weight exercises you mentioned every night may or may not be detrimental to your training. I think it depends on the volume you do. Generally speaking, I believe that training for muscle endurance (low weight/high rep.) actually requires more recovery time than high weight/low rep. The only way to know for sure is to try it for a few months and see how your body adapts.

    If you want to be careful regarding overtraining, I would recommend doing that stuff on the appropriate weight day though. For example, on bench days, do your pushups, hit the heavy bag, or whatever other endurance workout you plan to do for the upper body. On squat & deadlift days, do your bodyweight squats, horse stance, skip rope, etc. This way you'll maximize your recovery time between working each muscle group.

    As for the heavy bag, assuming you know how to work it, I'd start with 3 minute rounds with 1 minute rest between each round. Do as many as you can do without your form going to hell.

    If you haven't had any coaching, and you're interested in learning technique, as opossed to simply getting a good aerobic workout, then I wouldn't hit it at all until you've been properly coached.
  6. Varangian Guard is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2005 10:13am


     Style: Shuai Jiao/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @Hannibal

    I've asked for a review on my strength workout on many websites (ABCBodybuilding, Bodybuilding, mostly) and they all gave an ok. I guess I could just combine some days, and do Bench + Squat on Mondays, and Bench + Deadlift on Thursday; something like that. But then, I'll have to cut out most other exercises, and do only those big three.

    As for martial arts and bodyweight stuff; they all seem to be pretty much endurance. Thus, working and mostly using your TypeI Slow Twitch muscle fibers. Would it really be harmful to add some low intensity calisthenics; maybe three days a week, lasting 10 minutes? (I was originally thinking everyday, but that seems a bit too much. Though I've heard some say that if you do a set of pushups to failure everyday, you'll see increases in the number of reps you can do.)

    ~~

    Thanks to both of you. I'll look into what you guys have said. About bag work, you guys both said to try to do as many rounds as possible? Wouldn't there be a limit? (such as you shouldn't be going at it for 5 hours or something.)

    Well, basically, the point of this topic was to ask: since different muscle fibers are being worked on, would it be ok to add some slight endurance work onto the strength routine?
    Last edited by Varangian Guard; 10/31/2005 7:25pm at .
  7. Ender is offline
    Ender's Avatar

    Not Enough Weight

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2005 9:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you like the Westside template for strength training, but still want to do your calisthenics/endurance training, you might want to take a look at Joe DeFranco's "Westside for Skinny Bastards" program. It cuts out the DE lower body day and changes the content of the DE upper body day to emphasize strength-endurance to a greater degree. The advantage here is that your legs aren't jelly during your MA practice, and the overall volume is lower so that you can add in more endurance work on the side. Quite a few high-level athletes in a variety of sports have gotten a lot out of this program.
    Here's the link:
    http://www.defrancostraining.com/art...s_westside.htm
    "Even if one's head were to be suddenly cut off, he should be able to perform one more action with certainty."
    -Yamamoto Tsunetomo
  8. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    11/02/2005 3:34am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ali trained on the heavy bag 6x3 minute rounds and did 9 minutes on the speed bag during his training regime for a fight. That's about 30 minutes.

    Roy Jones Jr. spent about 50 minutes on the bags total.

    You might want to check out the book Workouts From Boxing 's Greatest Champs by Gary Todd. I wouldn't pay more than 10 bucks for it but it has basic outlines of workouts for Ali, Jones Jr., Vargas, etc. It's kind of cool to flip through.
  9. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2005 9:18am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Canadian Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 9chambers
    Ali trained on the heavy bag 6x3 minute rounds and did 9 minutes on the speed bag during his training regime for a fight. That's about 30 minutes.

    Roy Jones Jr. spent about 50 minutes on the bags total.

    You might want to check out the book Workouts From Boxing 's Greatest Champs by Gary Todd. I wouldn't pay more than 10 bucks for it but it has basic outlines of workouts for Ali, Jones Jr., Vargas, etc. It's kind of cool to flip through.
    The heavy bag puts alot of stress on your joints, to overdue it is counter-productive.
    Most fighters will spend more time on the TOTAL workout than on a specific part of it.
    Look at it this way:
    20 min warm up
    10 min shadow boxing
    30 min bag work
    5 min speed bag
    15 min focus mitt
    30 min sparring
    10 min cool down

    and what do we have:
    2 hours of non-stop training ( as opposed to the vast majority of 2 hr workouts that involves as much talking and whatnot as working out).
  10. daGorilla is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2005 10:27am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Varangian Guard
    @Hannibal

    I've asked for a review on my strength workout on many websites (ABCBodybuilding, Bodybuilding, mostly) and they all gave an ok. I guess I could just combine some days, and do Bench + Squat on Mondays, and Bench + Deadlift on Thursday; something like that. But then, I'll have to cut out most other exercises, and do only those big three.

    As for martial arts and bodyweight stuff; they all seem to be pretty much endurance. Thus, working and mostly using your TypeI Slow Twitch muscle fibers. Would it really be harmful to add some low intensity calisthenics; maybe three days a week, lasting 10 minutes? (I was originally thinking everyday, but that seems a bit too much. Though I've heard some say that if you do a set of pushups to failure everyday, you'll see increases in the number of reps you can do.)

    ~~

    Thanks to both of you. I'll look into what you guys have said. About bag work, you guys both said to try to do as many rounds as possible? Wouldn't there be a limit? (such as you shouldn't be going at it for 5 hours or something.)

    Well, basically, the point of this topic was to ask: since different muscle fibers are being worked on, would it be ok to add some slight endurance work onto the strength routine?

    Body building style workouts are the worst as far as being complimentary to martial arts. Squats and Deadlifts (and other Olympic lifts) are much better, so it's great that you have those in your workouts.

    IF strength, endurance, a strong cardiovascular system is your goal (and it should be, for martial arts), check out the crossfit (www.crossfit.com) and/or similar methods -- they are perfect for taxing your body both aerobically and anaerobically, and doing it very fast and efficiently. Bodyweight exercises are a good addition (and make up a lot of crossfit workouts as well, like Burpees, dips, pullups, pushups, etc.). Bag work is an excellent addition to your regimen, so good on ya'!

    As for bench press -- I'd reduce it. There are tons of superior, more general exercises. It takes much greater overall strength (legs, back, core) to Clean/Snatch 2X or more your body weight, which translates into much greater, REAL WORLD overall power, than having a big bench press.

    Check out this video: http://media.putfile.com/Ironmind_1993_Dimas

    ... and then ask yourself what real strength really is. :)

    And remember -- routine is the enemy! If you've got your workouts carefully 'scripted' out, your body will just adapt and you'll start to realize less gains. (Again, I refer to Crossfit and their affiliates for examples of high intensity, strength/endurance workouts.)

    Oh, and another thing: DON'T OVERLOOK FLEXIBILITY!!!! Stretch regularly -- 3-5 times per week, and try to improve your flexibility -- don't just do a half-ass 10 minute routine after a workout. Good flexibility pays dividends, my friends, in every aspect of martial arts and life in general.

    -daGorilla
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