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  1. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 12:38pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Olorin
    The invasion of Cuba by the United States in the Spanish American War (1898) was not he result of racism. First, most Americans at the time did not even realize that the majority of Cubans were of African decent. Yellow Journalism stoked the fires of this war and convinced the government to get involved in what was an internal affair of the Spanish Empire. It was not about race it was about William Randolph Hurstís, and other Yellow Journalistís desire to sell papers through sensationalism. This is why the United States became involved in Cuba.
    This was a major factor, but there were other underlying and supporting causes.

    1.) By 1898, US citizens had quite a bit of capital invested in Cuba, especially the western half, which was mostly where the current uprising/rebellion/whatever was taking place.

    2.) The Maine. In January of 1898, McKinley sent the USS Maine into the harbor in Havana to remind both sides (but mostly the Spanish) not to **** with American property. In February of 1898, there was a massive explosion onboard The Maine, ending in the death of most of the crew. The cause of this is debatable (Historians today are fairly certain today that it was an accident unrelated to the ship sitting in Cuba), but the Yellow sensationalists caught ahold of it and convinced the general populace that it was Spain's doing.

    3.) For some reason, Americans in power at the time seemed to have a patronizing sympathy for Cuba. They saw it as "a little brother."

    4.) Finally, top U.S. policymakers at the time saw starting a war with the Spanish over this as a fine way to drive one of the remaining European powers out of the northern Hemisphere of the "New World," thereby protecting out sovereignity. Monroe Doctrine arrogance at its finest.

    Unfortunately, when we obliterated Spain in this war, we ended up with Cuba, The Phillipines, and Guam (I think this is it, could be leaving something out). The prevailing idea at the time was that if we didn't take these poor helpless people in and help them set up proper governments, infrastructure, and militaries, other powers would swoop in and take them, leaving them as bad off as they were under the Spanish.

    Unfortunately, the road to Hell is paved with the best of intentions, so we ended up with the Platt Amendment, U.S. "peacekeepers" killing hundreds of thousands of people, and other fine examples of our glory.

    I wouldn't say that racism caused us to go to war with Spain, but, to be fair, it sure as hell directly contributed to us holding foreign territories when we shouldn't have. America should have stayed within its borders. Someone should have beaten McKinley over the head with a stone tablet version of Washington's farewell address.

    I sorta missed the bus on this debate, but I thought I would add my two cents anyway.
  2. TheManchu is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 1:39pm


     Style: luk chua bik da

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendetta
    Are you honestly missing my point?

    In this incidence, my point is that gangsta chic is a largish part of contemporary black identity. And while aspects of that subculture has mass appeal, the negative fallout wieghs overwhelmingly on the black community. Clear enough?

    It may be one factor (amongst many, no dount) that is perpetuating underperformance in black america.
    Would you say the same about Italian gangster-chic? Why or why not?
  3. TheManchu is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 1:55pm


     Style: luk chua bik da

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendetta
    And gangsta cool is everywhere, in every suburban mall in Kansas.
    I think there is a tendency to confuse one identical phenomenon as two separate ones. Many poor blacks and whites live in a fantasy world where fame is the way out. Brittany Speers is as typically white trash as any human could be, and is the goal for white trash girls everywhere. Rednecks have equally as strong a culture of violence, yet all whites do not become judged by that standard, even when they dictate who will be president.

    Both poor cultures are closely related to each other. And yet, the ultimate gangster movie for all is the Godfather, about Italians, by Italians. That's ganster culture, and gangsta culture. The argument that black gangs are destroying blacks, that black "gangsta culture" can somehow have any bearing on the validity of the culture of blacks who do not break the law, is, imo, the same as saying redneck culture is where I'm from because I'm white.

    Name one American culture that was kept from power by a succesful criminal element. The Irish are one of the dominant forces in the NY police force, italians have hardly been kept from power because of the mafia. It is the powerless who become the underclass, and no one else. That's why racist states were worried about black gun clubs and any strong organized black group in the sixties, no matter how moderate that group proved to be.
  4. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2005 2:44pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheManchu
    Would you say the same about Italian gangster-chic? Why or why not?
    At this point I think you are either being deliberately disingeuous, or you are so committed to a PC paradigm that you are forced to overreach.


    Now, sometime back I heard some sicilian music from the 1930's. It was that generations equivalent to gangsta chic. THe songs said all the same stuff, just in italian: " I'm loaded, bitches love me, I'll cut your face, etc etc"

    I fully recognze the connection between poverty, crime, and underpriveleged groups. The entire 'cockney' culture in england is another example. Fundamentally, I don't see the core of these issues as unique to black people, at all.

    But here is where your train jumps the tracks:

    Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2002
    Blacks were 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicide in 2002
    ***

    When these numbers are matched by the Italian American community, you'll have a point. Sorry to be that blunt, but your will to be polite to black people is typical of the liberal attitudes that are perpetuating a pretty dire situation. I am not content to be polite any longer. I want truth, justice, and real equality. Some feelings are going to have to be hurt, and some sacred cows sacrificed first.
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  5. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2005 8:10pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Have I killed yet ANOTHER political thread? Sweet. I'm getting good at this!

    Hedgehogey, I find it hysterical how fast you wimped out of this conversation. Fighting for racial justice is obviously more fun in the abstract, huh?
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  6. TheManchu is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 12:39am


     Style: luk chua bik da

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendetta
    At this point I think you are either being deliberately disingeuous, or you are so committed to a PC paradigm that you are forced to overreach.


    Now, sometime back I heard some sicilian music from the 1930's. It was that generations equivalent to gangsta chic. THe songs said all the same stuff, just in italian: " I'm loaded, bitches love me, I'll cut your face, etc etc"

    I fully recognze the connection between poverty, crime, and underpriveleged groups. The entire 'cockney' culture in england is another example. Fundamentally, I don't see the core of these issues as unique to black people, at all.

    But here is where your train jumps the tracks:

    Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2002
    Blacks were 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicide in 2002
    ***

    When these numbers are matched by the Italian American community, you'll have a point. Sorry to be that blunt, but your will to be polite to black people is typical of the liberal attitudes that are perpetuating a pretty dire situation. I am not content to be polite any longer. I want truth, justice, and real equality. Some feelings are going to have to be hurt, and some sacred cows sacrificed first.

    I am not being disingenuous. The difference between italians and blacks is not "gangster chic" at all: it is that Italians are white, look white, and so are not treated as Scarface on the whole, whereas blacks went from a situation where they were treated hostilely first because they were taking power back from an unjust society, and then were in the position where years of educational abuse and corrupt districting put them in a position that Italians were never in, so of course the end result is different. Those stats do not prove your point any more than mine: you haven't tied those stats to a single cause at all, nor do I expect anyone could.

    Unless you are tying those deaths solely to gangsta chic, your point is lost. And since the only difference you mention is music, and since you think Italian gangster chic ended in the 30's, I can't see how you are tying it all to that, which means you're not necessarily saying anything except using stats that you haven't tied to any one source to discount that it isn't tied to that one source.

    However, I'm busy reading related material, so I'll leave you to ranting about liberals and how whites are gonna save blacks by ending entitlements, which is as patronizing to blacks as what you claim I am doing, which is saying that this period will pass unless we undermine the effort to keep whites from doing what they have always done.

    Again, every period of black equality in the US was ended by tyranny. These entitlements are to keep whites in check. Abandon entitlements if you believe that is right, but until you recognize that whites are part of the problem in a deeper sense that liberal programs, you are on a well travelled road to failure. My family is from the South, I have lived all over the nation, and I know damn well that there are as many states where influential whites would love to put blacks in their place as there ever were. My position is entitlements to hem such whites in, not entitlements to patronize blacks, that is the realpolitik of my view. That you don't know such whites are not as far in the margin as people like to believe is your own issue: and it is not, as is popular to portray liberals, a self loathing: I've met enough Virginians to know that their is a toleration of racism there that has nothing to do with the people I come from.
  7. shadowcat is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 1:53am


     Style: Shotokan Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    uuuuhhhhh.......i thought all children were given ritalin.

    and since when do we kill black people by "Making" tham wear ADIDAS and brand name clothing? if they think manufactured things are the cause of the "death of blacks" maybe they should run around naked.....oh! i fogot! then the evil white person will put them in jail for indecent exposure....but never do the same to anyone else....right?

    such stupid people. another brilliant example of someone who shouldn't be allowed to breed.

    sure....they want to "stop" hate by promoting it? what ignorant idiots. what they really want is to be treated special. they already have f*cking scholarships just for being black when i can't get any because im white. they think they own everything because they have been "mistreated."

    yeah, bullshit. quit your whining and your ignorant rallying of your racial followers, ever think maybe YOU are responsible for ANYTHING???? no. of course not. nothing is anyone's fault anymore. its everyone elses. we have to be PC. i call BULLSHIT!

    let's blame someone new for something wrong with the world! i know! lets make up a new race to be the scapegoat race then no one can complain!

    such bullshit. THIS MAN IS THE REASON THEY ARE DYING.

    yes, let's create more violence. Stupid asses.....we'll all end up killing ourselves one day.
  8. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 3:54am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, i've been busy with a matter that's ironically very related to this issue.

    Listen Zendetta: Living near black people does not make you some kind of magical white extradimensional elf who can spout judgements of (what you have decided is wrong with)blacks (and their culture) that you claim (against all common sense) are equally valid wether the speaker is black or white.

    This isn't fucking 8 mile. Class concerns do not always trump race concerns, and you can't act as if your white privilege means nothing.
    If anyone could act that way, it would be me, having grown up in SE DC, having a father who died of aids when I was 5, witnessing the usual overhyped "violence" (but also a healthy dose of closeknitness that's lacking in the suburbs). Yet, because of my own white privilege, I am alive today, and a black kid who made the same exact choices as me would probably not be.

    You have no credibility here, Honkey McGillicuddy, and no number of SAW A BJJ BROWN GET STOMPED BY MULTIPLES type stories will change that.

    As for shadowcat, I am just glad he's doing shotokan, an art which, over years of training, actually leeches any fighting ability you had out of you in a kind of bizzare reverse osmosis.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  9. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 3:00pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good to see you are still kicking hedge, but you know you wouldn't have come back without the prodding.

    Lets get down to brass tacks here:
    -I do not think that I am the great white hype sent to save black people. I DO think that, as a member of this society, I am entitled and committed to offer commentarty on meaningful social issues. In Oakland, black on black violence is not an overhyped problem, but a dire reality.

    - I am not blind to 'white privelege' as you call it. I recently got pulled over by a black police officer. He was incredibly nice, almost apologetic. Suffice it to say tjhat my black friends' stories of police interactions were a little less warm and fuzzy. On the other hand, this issue of white privelege can easily be a fish-don't-see the-water issue that requires ongoing education. You are right to bring it up when some white guy starts telling black people what to do.

    - This isn't 8 mile and I ain't Eminem. I am fortunate enough to live in a nice area. My many black neighbors are NOT gangsters and criminals. I am not looking for street cred. I am looking for positive results.

    - Finally, and most tellingly, you are blowing off real life experiences of people in my area with the same slight of hand that you would challenge bullshido stories. That is horseshit. THe high incidence of black on black violence and the issues of gun control are not stories of chi knockouts but real assessments of things that are actually happening. You want to ignore them. I do not. This is typical of the DISHONESTY with which so many white people approach these issues.
    Last edited by Zendetta; 11/09/2005 9:56pm at .
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  10. TheManchu is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2005 4:35pm


     Style: luk chua bik da

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As a mod, I can tell by your ip address that you actually are eminem.

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