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  1. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2003 2:42pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    the F=MA formula is IN ESSENCE, correct. However, mass figures in a little differently in punching power than simply weight. This is because for the most part, people's fists don't vary in weight by too large of a margin. Granted, if you could increase the weight of your fist to 100 pounds and not lose any speed, your punching power would increase DRAMATICALLY, but unless you're Jesus, this is probably not the case. Due to complex body mechanics, momentum, angular momentum, among many many other things. So what it comes down to is that the Mass part of the F=MA can be ROUGHLY equated to the strength put behind the punch. This is why a stronger person will hit much harder than a weaker person who punches at the exact same speed (it's not simply because his fist is heavier).

    Keep in mind that this only applies to PUNCHING. If we were talking tackling, it's a whole different ball game. There, the physics would be much simpler..... a 200 pound man rushing you at 15 mph would hit twice as hard as a 100 pound man rushing you at 15 mph. That gets much simpler because you only need to consider the weight of the person (as his whole body is hitting you for the most part) and the speed at which he is travelling. Punching involves so many more complicated and subtle movements that the best way I can think of to describe it would be to equate the "Mass" to "Strength".

    Overall, a very nice series of posts KuntaoKid
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  2. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2003 5:10pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, NEWTON'S SECOND LAW is very accurate for any stiuation save one moving at an extremely high speed.

    . . . The sum of the forces in any situation is equal to the sum of all the little M*a 's in the situation. The physics is NOT too complicated to use newton's second law.
    We only need to know the result of muscle contraction, namely the velocity.

    the skeletal alignment...
    This would provide a force in some direction, it's be part of the "Sum of the forces = M*a"

    And are we concerned about force or about kinetic energy?
    You should know they are related...

    And how about the percentage of energy transfer from object A (fist) to object B (jaw)?
    It'd be different for every situation. It's unreasonable for you to ask that someone provide this information when they are simply giving a basic overview of some basic physics.
    [/quote]

    This isn't exactly aimed at Brandessario but his post was dettailed enough to make replies convenient:

    I don't know off-hand which law is neuton's second law, his first or his 27th and neither do I care. F= ma is not to relevant to punching power. If you park up hill and foget to put on the parking brake the car will roll down the hill in accordance with F = ma. If the car is rolling at 1 miles an hour when it hits you, it will hit with way more force than I could punch you with on my best day but it will not hurt unless it knocks you over and the car rolls over your clumsy ass.

    Likewise, if I lift 150 lb. barbell by resting the bar on my shoulders the F (force ) of the barbell downward on my shoulders is exactly the same as if it was dropped on my shoulders from the second story window. Mass doesn't change and the acceleration is still the acceleration of gravity. "What is the Force of the punch?" is the wrong question to ask.

    Analyzing momentum gets you closer but is still flawed. If a freight train is coasting towards you at 1 miles an hour and hits you, the result is the same as the car parked on a hill but the Force and Momentum are much much greater because the Mass is so much greater. Unfortunately, unless you are being smushed against a wall by a coasting freight train, you will suffer no major injuries.

    Kinetic energy is probably the quantity to quantify, but how? Neutons laws describe free bodies traveling through space. As we don't literally hurly our fists through space at our opponents, how to you quantify M?

    Skeletal allignment doesn't provide force in any direction. It provides a structure through which force can be tranmitted. A rigid structure transmits force more effiently. A flexible structure may have certain advantages for generating force but that is a dofferent question. Proper alignment can help insure that a higher percentage of the force generated by the large muscle groups get transmited out to the target. So it helps with rigidity (important for calculating kinetic energy transfer) but not by adding mass.

    It may be unreasonable for you to ask that someone provide this information when they are simply giving a basic overview of some basic physics. The physics being overview however, is flawed and a bit misleading. Usually, there is a trade of between speed and power. (Anyone remember the formula for power?) Many fighters sacrifice a certain amount of power for speed, and vice versa.

    innumeracy is a pet peeve of mine.

    Rant over.


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  3. IndoChinese is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2003 5:46pm


     Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    nice omar. excellent post. i am far from done i might add. as well i should state that i study many basic subjects that relate to ma. i just wanted to share some of my ideas. i am not a mathmetician of any kind. i like to engage in 'practical translation' of theories. if i cant use on my practice partners, it is of no use to me. i think that having an intellectual understanding of the principles of physics as they apply to ma is very helpful in increasing your skills. but it must remain very 'organic' taking into account many different factors. by nature such 'martial physics' theories must be very flexible and most importantly,they must be kept SIMPLE. under the scrutiny of the most scientific and detailed inspection and criticism such 'theories' will also seem to be lacking. thats okay. im not trying to build a space shuttle. i just want to punch you. martial arts is intuitive and emotive, not intellectual. i only need to 'go so far' with physics to understand what i am doing with my ma. that being said, i would like to continue with quite a few other factors that also contribute to powerful hitting.

    thanks for all the replies.

    peace.
  4. IndoChinese is offline

    AKAKTK

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2003 8:51pm


     Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    sensei, dont let him **** you. that was a KO. the best strikes always feel like nothing.
  5. gong sau is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2003 9:40pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazillian Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Power=Work/Time, otherwise known as the area under the curve to the Mathematicians out there. This is much more suited to describe how hard you hit, as in your barbell example (excellent eg, btw). Now force *does* come into play, in the following way: Work=Force*Distance. So, in the first (resting) case, no work is being done, because no distance is covered so P=0. In the second case, the barbell is moving, so W=F*d and P=W/t. Put it all together and you have P=M*a*d/t. Although this should cover it, there are SHITLOADS of little forces and distances and accelerations involved in moving an arm. Some of which have to be figured with other formulae. Once you've isolated each and every possible component, then you get to add it all up geometrically (NOT algebraically). It is a very complex issue.



    Yeah, yeah. I know I'm a geek. :P
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  6. SamHarber is offline

    Taking a break

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2003 8:42am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kuntaokid - where do you stand on the theory that parts of the body must move in synchronisation with each other, ie. shoulder and hips move together, elbows and knees, hands and feet.
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
  7. Vapour is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2003 9:13am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    SpeedxMass=Force formula is true only if the objecte is "free" falling and not applicable to punch.

    Say there is a car going down a hill at 50km/h because someone forgot to put the brake. Say there is another car which is going down the same hill at the same speed because someoe is driving this car. If these two car hit a object (tree), the car which is driven by someone has far more impact than the one which is free falling because it has the power of engine which suddenly contract at the moment of impact. And when you are talking about the force of punch, it is the horsepower of engine which matter most, not the weight.

    Fist and arm don't weight that much. Plus, your other part of the body don't count in punch as mass. Thought you can put your entire body mass into punch if you run toward opponent from far distance and "jump" into him with a fist, if you do something like that, he will probably side step and trip you. Punch is thrown mainly in horizontal direction and there is no way you can put you body mass into fist in any significat degree. (Yes, you sometimes forward step when punch but that is more as a foot work rather than adding power to punch.) Otherwise, super heavy weight boxers who don't have weight limit would be trying to fatten themselves like sumo wrestler.

    It is often said that heavier the person, heavier the punch. This is true if the puncher is an amature. In this case, he often side swing the punch to give momentum of his body mass to the punch similar to running punch example I gave. However, such punch in high level competition is too slow, too telegraphic to be effective. In high level practioner, what count is power of muscle (engine) which is transfered at the point of impact. Human could lift more than it's own body weight. By correct alignment and coordination, what happen is that high level practioner can concentrate entire body muscle's movement from leg, hip, back/chest, shoulder and arm in one single moment of impact which produce far more force than his body mass warrant. This is also the idea of fajing/OneInchPunch. The better you are, the shorter the distance required to deliver that punch. Extremely proficient practioner could blast someone without appearing to move much which was mistakenly thought as a ki blast (or this is the real ki blast).

    Hence the power of punch is determined not by body weight but by muscle's aggregate power of contraction which include it's size as a factor.



    Edited by - vapour on April 09 2003 09:46:53
  8. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2003 9:43am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All right allright, now that the physics are cleared up, we can nitpick the rest of his post...


    BAH ! Puny Humans !
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  9. gong sau is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2003 10:01am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazillian Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Vapour,

    >Human could lift more than it's own body weight.

    This is the only statement in your entire post that is correct.
    -----------------------------------------------------
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  10. Vapour is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2003 10:20am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Vapour,

    >Human could lift more than it's own body weight.

    This is the only statement in your entire post that is correct.

    can you elaborate?
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