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  1. Katsujinken is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 7:49pm


     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido

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    Misconceptions of Aikido

    Hi everyone,
    I was reading another thread about aikido but it was too late to post and although I've only been training in Yoshinkan Aikido for a little over 4 years, I thought I would write a little bit about my understanding of aikido training.

    Aikido uses no physical strength, the weight of one's own arms is enough in order to break an assailants bones or throw someone or deliver a killing blow. To use strength such as someone suggested when they spoke about "powerful clothesline throws" is absolutely the wrong idea in aikido, there will always be someone stronger than you, there will always be someone tougher than you. If you were simply stronger than your opponent, then what do you need martial arts for? Your body must be like flowing water blending around an obstacle. It may seem like a contradiction to what alot of other arts teach but that is what aikido is about. You must change your way of thinking. What you think is, isn't.

    There is also no sparring in aikido. The techniques learned are too dangerous to play with, also with sparring comes rules and in combat there are no rules. The idea is that sparring teaches people to hold back or to depend too much on a certain single technique which they can trick people with in a tournament. The method of training could be described more like a dance where each person has specific roles and motions to perform.

    The person on whom the technique is applied [uke], performs their part of the technique as perfectly as possible whether or not the person applying the technique [shite] causes them to do so. It is not for uke to resist the technique because if they changed what they were doing such as stopping to pull and starting to push then a different technique would be used. By each person doing their part of the kata, both gain a better understanding of how the body moves and how it can be manipulated. Shite practices experiencing balance and uke practices experiencing imbalance.

    When uke flips, it is not because shite makes them flip, rather shite merely throws uke to the ground with the intention of smashing uke into the ground which would cause serious injury if not death. That is why aikido is jokingly sometimes referred to as "the art of hitting people with planets". The flip is done by uke as an escape [kaishi waza] from the throw. That is why in the club in which I train we learn 17 ways just to fall because each one is more than a fall it's a specific kind of escape.

    The "robotic" motions some of you have mentioned are important for certain styles of aikido training which break down the basic techniques into steps where both shite and uke must follow these steps exactly because once a level of understanding for the basic techniques has been reached, reversal techniques can be learned where part-way through a technique uke becomes shite and it is important that while uke is performing the technique up till then that they are in the precise position in order to do the reversal This is also why some aikidoka start refering to two or more people performing a technique as one "shite-uke".

    The techniques learned in class would never be used in the street exactly as they are in the dojo. In fact, the techniques are often designed to be performed from the most awkward position so that it will be all the easier in an actual fight. The techniques aikidoka practice are more of a template for understanding how to move and exploit the way others move, which takes many years to develop - the technique of no technique.

    Aikido is also about leading your opponent's mind. This is not so much magical as it is about psychological warfare, understanding how people think during a fight and how to manipulate that. One such way to do this is by purposely creating obvious openings or points where assailants would be more likely to try an take advantage of. Just like in the film "The Seven Samurai" where the characters fortify most of the village except for specific points where they want the bandits to attack. Uke rushing at shite to grab his extended arm may look ridiculous but in an actual fight people will grab at anything they may see as an opening. For those reading this who have seen people attacked on the street you may have seen that alot of the time an assailant will grab someone pull them in and punch them, the wrist-grab is just one example of a possible place that someone could be grabbed which aikidoka practice.

    I would also like to address the idea some have that aikidoka do not learn how to attack effectively. If uke is attacking shite so shite can practice a particular technique then aikidoka are indeed learning to attack. Coupling this with the fact that if an aikidoka attacks someone and a technique starts being applied, that aikidoka can reverse that technique. When an aikidoka can attack with the knowledge that they can evade block or reverse anything that could come at them nothing would hold them back from insitgating a fight if they needed to? Gozo Shioda Sensei, founder of the Yoshinkan style, wrote that "Atemi [strikes] are 70% of a real fight." He was known to often go and challenge the local Yakuza in Shinjuku to fights in order to refine his technique. Aikidoka may learn flips and locks but never forget the practicality of strikes.

    Someone also remarked that aikido is not practical for the streets, but this is also untrue. I was attacked recently by two masked men who wanted my wallet. I was able to use my training to fight them off without killing them. Original aikijutsu is a battlefield art. therefore aikidoka learn the realities of fighting multiple opponents. The techniques modern aikidoka learn are for the benefit of not killing assailants. The pins that follow techniques were originally killing motions; ikkago would end with crushing the ribcage, sokomen iriminage would end with the aikidoka wrapping their arm around and breaking the neck as well as the lower spine as the assailant as they dropped on the aikidoka's knee. Luckily I learn both versions :)

    Finally, to those who think that aikido simply would not work I have to say that aikido is a 1 200 year old martial art used in countless battles. If it didn't work, the people who practiced it would have been killed off by now. Rooted in pa'qua, shing yi and tai chi as well as blended with the sword style of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, aikido is an ancient and elegant art. Even today it's what is taught to the Tokyo Riot Police because it has proven its effectiveness over time. It may be an esoteric art but do not be fooled into dismissing what you may not yet fully understand.

    -Brian
  2. BudoBuyu is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 7:54pm


     Style: BBT

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    Que Bullies in 5...4...
  3. VikingPower is offline
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    Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 7:58pm

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    I'm glad I made this new picture. It should keep me quite entertained.
  4. VikingPower is offline
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    Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 7:59pm

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  5. Slydermv is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 8:07pm


     Style: WTF TKD, BJJ/MMA

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    Troll....
  6. lm2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 8:08pm


     Style: JTKD/ARNIS/BJJ/km

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    koto ryu is correct it does not matter who old or long ago the thread was. We try to avoid dupplicate topics. :new_sleep

    So dont expect any more kindness. :5censored
  7. CanucKyokushin is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 8:21pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsujinken
    Finally, to those who think that aikido simply would not work I have to say that aikido is a 1 200 year old martial art used in countless battles.
    -Brian
    You don't even have that right.I guess what you mean is that Aikido CAN/maybe trace its roots back to some old art that existed 1200 years ago
  8. VikingPower is offline
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    Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 8:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin
    You don't even have that right.I guess what you mean is that Aikido CAN/maybe trace its roots back to some old art that existed 1200 years ago
    Agreed. Last I heard, Kano wasn't around 1200 years ago.
  9. BSDaemon is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 8:25pm

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    OMG,

    TEH DEADLY AIKIDO!wn!!!1
  10. BudoBuyu is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 8:29pm


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    Kind of looks like Segal has downs in that picture.
  11. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 8:31pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Did that guy just say Aikido is 1200 years old?
  12. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 8:31pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Aikido uses no physical strength, the weight of one's own arms is enough in order to break an assailants bones or throw someone or deliver a killing blow.
    What evidence can you put forward to substantiate this. Just becuase something makes sense in your head when you are thinking about it doesn't mean it works in reality.

    There is also no sparring in aikido. The techniques learned are too dangerous to play with, also with sparring comes rules and in combat there are no rules. The idea is that sparring teaches people to hold back or to depend too much on a certain single technique which they can trick people with in a tournament. The method of training could be described more like a dance where each person has specific roles and motions to perform.
    Again, what evidence can you provide that these techniques are too dangerous to spar with?If you have t3h d3adly techniques then you spar with ones that aren't. A little randori, with both opponents resisting and attempting to throw the other is a great way to test your grappling skills and to sort the innefective from the effective. If you have never tried a wrist lock on a resisting opponent, who can step, evade or reverse it, then you have no evidence that it works. That's faith-based martial arts. If you think sparring is such a game then turn up to a judo, wrestling or jujitsu (modern) class and show 'em what you've got. I reccomend doing this becuase it shows you where you really are in terms of your grappling ability, throwing compliant ukes can lead to a false sense of security and isn't the measure of grappling ability.

    It is not for uke to resist the technique because if they changed what they were doing such as stopping to pull and starting to push then a different technique would be used. By each person doing their part of the kata, both gain a better understanding of how the body moves and how it can be manipulated. Shite practices experiencing balance and uke practices experiencing imbalance.
    I agree that partner compliant drills can teach ukemi and serve as a good way to introduce a new technique, but eventually you will have to step out of that comfort zone and start adding resistance. Changing the technique when the opponent strongly resists is a staple of grappling arts and open, fully resistant randori excersise really lets you work on this aspect of grappling. If you havn't done it, you are only imagining that it works.

    When uke flips, it is not because shite makes them flip, rather shite merely throws uke to the ground with the intention of smashing uke into the ground which would cause serious injury if not death.
    This is one of the primary critisms of akido. The uke is doing the technique for the shite. Do you still do your flip if the shite waves his finger in the air? or performed horrible technique?

    The techniques learned in class would never be used in the street exactly as they are in the dojo. In fact, the techniques are often designed to be performed from the most awkward position so that it will be all the easier in an actual fight.
    I find this attitdue very disturbing. You are letting what you think works dictate reality rather than what you have sucessfully tested. Imagining that a real street encounter will be a cake-walk based on your training is a dangerous delusion that can end with you being seriously hurt or worse, because you had faith in your techniques without solid evidence. Please go and try your stuff out on a boxer, kickboxer, judoka, wrestler or anyone that trains live. You might find that it's not as easy as you think it is to deal with opponents who are really attacking you.

    If uke is attacking shite so shite can practice a particular technique then aikidoka are indeed learning to attack.
    Attacking someone in order to allow them to throw you is not good attacking training.

    I'm now bored of this game. You make a lot of assertions with no evidence. Upload a video file of you dealing with a fully resisting and realisticly attacking uke. Go and ask a boxer if he can attack you so you can practice akido on him. If you only take away one point from my post make it this;

    Evidence, evidence, evidence.

    :new_alien
  13. BSDaemon is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 8:51pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But seriously now... here are my personal martial experiences with Aikido:

    1. My Karate sensei attempted to show us standing wristlocks

    2. At the Throwdown I have spared many times with an ex-aikidoka MMA guy whom has never found himself in a position to take me down with a wrist lock... Even long before I was a grappler. He spent many years working on Aikido techniques which did little to prepare him for our kind of real live encounters, and seemed to consider the time he invested into those techniques as a waste.

    3. We had a couple pure Aikido guys threaten to show up at one of the throwdowns, but they, like Katsujinken they were just too goddamn deadly to spar with us. Its a shame we had a lot of fun without them.

    4. I have both applied and experienced aikido-esque wristlocks in the midst of Jiu Jitsu ground fighting

    Conclusion: meh. Wrist locks are like 1 percent of what a well rounded fighter needs to know.
    Last edited by BSDaemon; 10/22/2005 10:35pm at .
  14. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 8:52pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsujinken
    There is also no sparring in aikido. The techniques learned are too dangerous to play with, also with sparring comes rules and in combat there are no rules. The idea is that sparring teaches people to hold back or to depend too much on a certain single technique which they can trick people with in a tournament. The method of training could be described more like a dance where each person has specific roles and motions to perform.

    And it starts...

    First to start things off Aikido is just Classical Jujutsu (at least the basics of Jujutsu). If you don't belive me Aikido is a circularized version of Diato Ryu Shoden Gata. Many Jujutsu schools, classical and modern, spar. I don't know what sparring you have done, but I don't hold back we spar. The only time I would hold back is with a lower rank. Do I headbutt to the face, no, but I know it there if I want it. Sparring is not about seeing what you know but what you incorpated into arensal. At the moment you arensal proabably includes a Kote Gaeshi that would get you punched in the face if you attempted it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Katsujinken
    The person on whom the technique is applied [uke], performs their part of the technique as perfectly as possible whether or not the person applying the technique [shite] causes them to do so. It is not for uke to resist the technique because if they changed what they were doing such as stopping to pull and starting to push then a different technique would be used. By each person doing their part of the kata, both gain a better understanding of how the body moves and how it can be manipulated. Shite practices experiencing balance and uke practices experiencing imbalance.
    Oh god no! Yes, Japanese Kata is a prescripted movement, however, if the tori ( I assume you call them shite) doesn't lock me or throw me, I won't go down. This isn't me trying to beat his kata, it making him do it RIGHT. If he doesn't break my balance I will turn the kata around and throw his ass. Ever get a heel kicked into the thigh because you didn't do the kata right? Trust me, it makes you do it right the next time. What you describe is Flower Kata, it looks pretty, but ultimately crap because the uke is throwing himself, rather then protecting himself from a well placed lock.


    Quote Originally Posted by Katsujinken
    When uke flips, it is not because shite makes them flip, rather shite merely throws uke to the ground with the intention of smashing uke into the ground which would cause serious injury if not death. That is why aikido is jokingly sometimes referred to as "the art of hitting people with planets". The flip is done by uke as an escape [kaishi waza] from the throw. That is why in the club in which I train we learn 17 ways just to fall because each one is more than a fall it's a specific kind of escape.
    As I said before, the Ukemi is done because the wrist or shoulder or something is locked and the only way not to have it broken is to throw your body in the right way. I had and at the moment have again an injuried wirst becuase I couldn't get my body in the right position fast enough. My fault not the tori[shite].

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsujinken
    Aikido is also about leading your opponent's mind. This is not so much magical as it is about psychological warfare, understanding how people think during a fight and how to manipulate that. One such way to do this is by purposely creating obvious openings or points where assailants would be more likely to try an take advantage of. Just like in the film "The Seven Samurai" where the characters fortify most of the village except for specific points where they want the bandits to attack. Uke rushing at shite to grab his extended arm may look ridiculous but in an actual fight people will grab at anything they may see as an opening. For those reading this who have seen people attacked on the street you may have seen that alot of the time an assailant will grab someone pull them in and punch them, the wrist-grab is just one example of a possible place that someone could be grabbed which aikidoka practice.
    How many street fight you been in lately. I never had my wrist grab in a sparring match or a steet fight (I had a few). Classical Jujutsu includes wrist grab because that was a good way to make sure the other guy didn't draw his sword. But don't preach about steet fight wrist grabs. If I see someone going into their pocket or to the waist band I will grab their wrist, but remember Aikidoka, it being followed by a nice strike...

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsujinken
    I would also like to address the idea some have that aikidoka do not learn how to attack effectively. If uke is attacking shite so shite can practice a particular technique then aikidoka are indeed learning to attack. Coupling this with the fact that if an aikidoka attacks someone and a technique starts being applied, that aikidoka can reverse that technique. When an aikidoka can attack with the knowledge that they can evade block or reverse anything that could come at them nothing would hold them back from insitgating a fight if they needed to? Gozo Shioda Sensei, founder of the Yoshinkan style, wrote that "Atemi [strikes] are 70% of a real fight." He was known to often go and challenge the local Yakuza in Shinjuku to fights in order to refine his technique. Aikidoka may learn flips and locks but never forget the practicality of strikes.
    They don't learn to Strike! I will give you a quick story. I was training with a Aikidoka two years or so ago, and told him to throw a punch. The punch was the slowest weaked they I ever saw. Thats how they did it, throwing slow haymakers. But when I punch him, I hit square on target (the nose). Many Aikidoka practice unrealistic punch where the opponest throws himself into the punch falling off balance. Atemi is 70% of the match. Practice what you preach!



    Quote Originally Posted by Katsujinken
    Finally, to those who think that aikido simply would not work I have to say that aikido is a 1 200 year old martial art used in countless battles. If it didn't work, the people who practiced it would have been killed off by now. Rooted in pa'qua, shing yi and tai chi as well as blended with the sword style of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, aikido is an ancient and elegant art. Even today it's what is taught to the Tokyo Riot Police because it has proven its effectiveness over time. It may be an esoteric art but do not be fooled into dismissing what you may not yet fully understand.

    -Brian

    What! Diato Ryu was a palace art (bodyguarding, not battlefield). Aikido is roughly 100 years old and was create long after Japan's waring period. Aikido was created as part of a religion of peace, as a way to bring about this peace. Its not a fucking battlefield art. Kickcatcher, maybe you should draw a comic about the famous unarmed Aikidoka of the battlefield using Aikido against a fucking spear!

    Evidence of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu relationship? Thats a new one to me. You do know Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is only 400-500 years old? Chinese Arts? WTF? Aikido is Diato Ryu Shoden Gata. Thats pretty much it.

    You want to retort? Bring it on bitch...
    Last edited by Plasma; 10/22/2005 8:58pm at .
  15. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2005 8:56pm

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    Misconception about Aikido:

    It is a good martial art.

    PL
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