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  1. PEtrainer is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 10:39am


     Style: wrestling, Bjj, fi ting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    There are previous posts about it, but commercial Aikido has become dominated by the Aikibunnies, the Hippies, and men who like wearing dresses and shouting in japanese. Kind of like how TKD is dominated by people who think XMA = Fighting Skill and screaming at the top of thier lungs is the same as a kiai.

    There is a lot of "Bad" Aikido out there. People who don't understand, or don't want to understand about O-Sensei, his philosophy, or why he could do what he did. People who are just going through the motions without understanding the purpose behind them.

    But there is just as much good Aikido out there. The problem is good Aikido classes tend to be small and non-commercial because it takes a lot more one-on-one work to teach good Aikido and the good Aikido instructors generally don't want to deal with the hassle of running a business and prefer to just attach themselves to another school or place like the YMCA.
    And now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
  2. me4life69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 11:17am


     Style: She Sho Nah Fen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    screw it
    Last edited by me4life69; 11/18/2005 11:27am at .
  3. Peter H. is offline

    Professional Wrestler

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 11:22am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Somewhere in there (^) is a grammatically correct, complete sentence. I challenge all posters to attempt to find it.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  4. me4life69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 11:26am


     Style: She Sho Nah Fen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    im not about to type in complete sentences as i feel it is a style of someone elses way. i have found my own way or writing and i will not change my way as i feel it is the way that works for me. puncuation is overated as is spellin
  5. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 11:34am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by me4life69
    im not about to type in complete sentences as i feel it is a style of someone elses way. i have found my own way or writing and i will not change my way as i feel it is the way that works for me. puncuation is overated as is spellin
    Apparently, so is an education and a job outside of food service.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  6. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 1:17pm


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by me4life69
    im not about to type in complete sentences as i feel it is a style of someone elses way. i have found my own way or writing and i will not change my way as i feel it is the way that works for me. puncuation is overated as is spellin
    What is the point of communicating if people can not understand you?
  7. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 1:26pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    But could I also ask first how you train? Do you spar? How do you implement resistance? I'm frankly interested and I am not going to take the piss, or whatever. This is not a bullshido test, I just want to understand where you're coming from, and draw on your experiences. If you think that others will pick up on it and flamefest the topic, you can pm me.

    ^ Same question to DCS, and any other takers.
    Well, typical class is 2 and a half hours long. First hour is always buki waza (weapons: bokken and jo). There is no free sparring with wooden weapons (oak hurts a lot). Class can be suburi or kata (solo practice), or paired practice. Paired practice has three modes: 1) step by step - tori moves, then uke moves- 2) both move at the same time - mid to full speed but with a little stop between techniques- 3) full speed non stop -with control-.

    Of course, like i said, this is no free sparring, the movements are predefined. The objetive of this practice is not developing jo jutsu or ken jutsu skills (there are schools for that if you want), it's for developing footwork, distance and study the relation between weapon techniques and empty hand techniques, how they share the same principles.

    This clip is a demo, if your want to have an idea about how these techniques look.

    The second part of the class, about 1 and a half hour long, is devoted to empty hands technique. Empty hand technique is trained for a long time in a "yoshinkanish" mode but with less posturing. Static mode, no flowing, no speed (but with force) until technique is almost perfect, then about 2nd/1st kyu speed increases. This training looks for proper posture, balance (not committed attacks), uke doesn't have to fall if technique isn't correctly done (no flying ukes) uke resist but doesn't counter, developement of "hidraulic grip" (if nage's hand doesn't turn purple when wristgrabbed then nage isn't properly wristgrabbed)....

    Randori: more or less like PeterH said, some things: randori is alt least 3 vs. one, if not it's too slow. Attacks can be predeterminated/limited or not (if not, a bit of chambering is done), speed is increased until full speed is achieved. Nage can do any technique but with control (if nage is not sure if he can control the technique, or the "attacker" isn't able to take ukemi, he must not apply it). The result is a lot of iriminage and kokyunage.

    See video

    Of course, these videos are demos, not free sparring but can help to get an idea about how techniques look when done full speed.

    After saturdays morning class time (the week days we have to leave the mat because the capoeira class starts), the resident badasses do "t3h gr4ppl3": from tanto randori 1 vs 1 "do what you can" mode, bad judo, worst bjj, anything the body asks for (travels to "moons of jupiter" aren't allowed in the mat)

    More or less... and more to come.
    Last edited by DCS; 11/18/2005 1:33pm at .
  8. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2005 12:53pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    In judo, the "uke" doesn't know he is an uke until after he's flung across the room.
    OK, I double checked this ^ and I still can't understand the roasting.

    It's an innocent off the cuff remark about how in judo randori the uke and tori are not preassigned. Both partners square off and try to attack, defend and apply a technique on their partner.

    Since both are trying to pull of a technique at the same time, neither is the uke. At some point someone is going to get a technique off and the other person will fly <-- and at this point he becomes the uke.

    Why the pain?
  9. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2005 1:06pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So why isn't there more sparring in aikido? Is it because of a lack of attacking techniques, making it difficult for two people to start fighting?

    Also I view the punch (tsuki) in aikido rather unrealistic, as it's telegraphed from a mile away. Not to mention shomen uchi and yokomen uchi, although I understand the latter two are not usually expected to be delivered empty handed. Do you practice against more realistic strikes, and do you keep your hands up (head high) or mid-chest-high?
  10. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2005 1:16pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And a minor clarification: when I referred to kote gaeshi and shiho nage as difficult techniques to execute with control, i.e. to put the technique "on" but not rip someone's arm off, I was referring not to the "lock" techniques, but the throw variation.

    For example in a kote gaeshi lock the uke's fingers/palm/wrist are turned inwards. The uke has to kneel and is locked. In the throw variation the uke's fingers are turned inwards and twisted outwards <-- this twist is the hard part to control. Also the uke at that point will need to execute an awkward mae ukemi since his leading arm is locked underneath him; he'll need to rotate his entire body over his leading arm.

    A shiho nage lock is normally done so that the uke's elbow points straight up, and his arm is brought straight down. His arm turns back in on itself and the uke executes a ushiro ukemi. The throw variation is done with the uke's elbow sideways, pointing parallel to the ground. At this point the uke cannot execute a straightforward ushiro ukemi, but needs to somersault over and around his shoulder.
  11. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2005 1:35pm


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    And a minor clarification: when I referred to kote gaeshi and shiho nage as difficult techniques to execute with control, i.e. to put the technique "on" but not rip someone's arm off, I was referring not to the "lock" techniques, but the throw variation.

    For example in a kote gaeshi lock the uke's fingers/palm/wrist are turned inwards. The uke has to kneel and is locked. In the throw variation the uke's fingers are turned inwards and twisted outwards <-- this twist is the hard part to control. Also the uke at that point will need to execute an awkward mae ukemi since his leading arm is locked underneath him; he'll need to rotate his entire body over his leading arm.

    A shiho nage lock is normally done so that the uke's elbow points straight up, and his arm is brought straight down. His arm turns back in on itself and the uke executes a ushiro ukemi. The throw variation is done with the uke's elbow sideways, pointing parallel to the ground. At this point the uke cannot execute a straightforward ushiro ukemi, but needs to somersault over and around his shoulder.

    The Kote-gaishi is actually an easy fall to master. Throw the opposite arm over and flip into a side fall. Never had any issues with it. And if the Nage doesn't get a full twist in and under on the wrist, you can usually just flop backwards with the throw.

    For shiho, I'd have to see it to comment. It's hard for me to visualize from what you are describing. But usually, if you are pointing the elbow sideways on a shiho-nage instead of straight up or tilted forward, you are purposefully attempting a shoulder dislocation, as opposed to the regular throw/takedown from Shiho.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  12. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2005 1:44pm


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    So why isn't there more sparring in aikido? Is it because of a lack of attacking techniques, making it difficult for two people to start fighting?

    Also I view the punch (tsuki) in aikido rather unrealistic, as it's telegraphed from a mile away. Not to mention shomen uchi and yokomen uchi, although I understand the latter two are not usually expected to be delivered empty handed. Do you practice against more realistic strikes, and do you keep your hands up (head high) or mid-chest-high?

    Different schools teach different things.

    One of the main things is that in Aikido, you normally want to be reactive, don't start out the agressor. That isn't to say you can't seize the initiative and become the agressor, but you want to try to force your opponent to come to you, to reach for you, to over extend himself. So you don't want to stay in his comfort range, and you don't want to start the fight by stepping into a punch.

    Tsuki starts out chambered for waza and low level randori, but become more realistic as you gain experience, I teach my students "boxing" style jab, cross, hook, as well as backfist and hammerfist. Although I recently learned that I had at some point developed the habit of lifting my elbow on some of my punches that I am working out of my system.

    I like to keep my hands around chest high, unless I know I can absolutely dominate a guy because I am faster. Then I will let the drop lower, to around my center or even to my sides, and "invite" some attacks from him. But that is more for when I am playing with other students. If I am serious my hands will be around my chest or my head.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  13. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2005 1:48pm


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    OK, I double checked this ^ and I still can't understand the roasting.

    It's an innocent off the cuff remark about how in judo randori the uke and tori are not preassigned. Both partners square off and try to attack, defend and apply a technique on their partner.

    Since both are trying to pull of a technique at the same time, neither is the uke. At some point someone is going to get a technique off and the other person will fly <-- and at this point he becomes the uke.

    Why the pain?
    Blanket statements are bad, and you had already rubbed me wrong.

    Judo randori may not have designated uki/nage.

    Judo waza does.

    I also tend to insult and cajole people into digging their own holes. Once they've done that, and they realize they have no where to go, they are usually more attentive and receptive when I start explaining things, or they shut me out completely, in which case I don't bother with them.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  14. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2005 2:25pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    For shiho, I'd have to see it to comment. It's hard for me to visualize from what you are describing. But usually, if you are pointing the elbow sideways on a shiho-nage instead of straight up or tilted forward, you are purposefully attempting a shoulder dislocation, as opposed to the regular throw/takedown from Shiho.
    Yeah, I agree. Ii's probably not a throw, it's a "don't do it" as it will pretty much inevitably lead to a dislocation.
  15. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2005 2:26pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    I also tend to insult and cajole people into digging their own holes. Once they've done that, and they realize they have no where to go, they are usually more attentive and receptive when I start explaining things, or they shut me out completely, in which case I don't bother with them.
    Oh, I knew you had much to contribute. I did my homework as a noob :)
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