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  1. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 12:55pm


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    No. Technique drills play a part also. However there is no concept of varying degrees of resistance. Drills are drills, sparring is sparring.

    Am I misreading your post?
    Maybe, but I think you are coming around the hard way towards enlightenment.

    Drills can be practiced with varying levels of resistance to learn to overcome resistance, same as not all sparring is full contact.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
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    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  2. Sun Wukong is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 9:44pm


     Style: Boxing/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, I have to say this is the first constructive criticism I've seen for an aikido thread in a long time.

    This is bullshido.net right? 'Cause any moment now I'm expecting the space time continuum to rip apart and a huge vortex to destroy all existance from the paradox here.
    A lie gets half-way around the world before the truth has time to get it's pants on. - Winston Churchhill
  3. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2005 6:23am


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    Maybe, but I think you are coming around the hard way towards enlightenment.

    Drills can be practiced with varying levels of resistance to learn to overcome resistance, same as not all sparring is full contact.
    It's not the same. Many (most?) Aikido moves cannot be performed easily in a controlled manner. "Not easily" means in my experience at least 8+ years of practice and the attainment of a 3rd dan. And even then the aikidoka will not be performing those moves in a controlled manner reliably. The point at which you are dislocating wrists comes too quickly and too easily, ergo the Aikido moves are prone to causing long term injury, ergo the fallacy that Aikido is a "peaceful" art that would allow you to overcome your opponent without causing injury to them.

    Also. In muay thai drill practice you strike full force, and your partner doesn't drop down and fake a KO. When you apply a say, juji gatame in Judo you do it all the way until the other person taps, and the other person can resist (ie pull back, not wait until their arm is ripped out) as much as they want. I'm a Judo noob but haven't seen any moves in Judo that have this problem, but on this correct me if I'm wrong.

    And it's not the same as sparring full contact because it's not at all sparring. Sparring teaches a whole set of skills that you (imho) cannot possibly learn by drilling technique, compliantly or with any amount of resistance.

    I also have a view on all the flopping about that you have to do as a beginner (correct me if I'm wrong but that's the first two years at least). I think you train your mind & body to jump. But this is a different conversation that will take long to analyze.

    But could I also ask first how you train? Do you spar? How do you implement resistance? I'm frankly interested and I am not going to take the piss, or whatever. This is not a bullshido test, I just want to understand where you're coming from, and draw on your experiences. If you think that others will pick up on it and flamefest the topic, you can pm me.

    ^ Same question to DCS, and any other takers.
  4. Atomic Noodle is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2005 6:55am


     Style: Aikido, Iaido, (+ others)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting.
    A common theme in this thread seems to be the dual-nature of Aikido. That being a “peaceful art” (note quotation marks) and being a truly effective MA (i.e. subduing and basically hurting people)

    I hope the OP of this thread feels guilty for startng this monotonos tirade....

    Anywho,
    I have seen both aspects. As our club isn’t the biggest – 50 or so members – we have to train with people who aren’t necessarily tree-huggers, but they aren’t hardcore if you get my meaning. They are they middle of the road “hobby” martial artists who are basically looking for something to do after work. I personally don’t like driving females into the mat, nor some of the more “gentle” people who turn up (not to mention kids. It’s in our interest that these people turn up (and pay fees to keep us there =) )

    I have been doing MA for about 10 years on and off (Kung-fu variety, Wing Chun, Ju-Jitsu, Iaido and now mainly Aikido) and I have received quite a few injuries from Aikido, the most serious being some decent ligament damage to my AC joint which needed an op, so yeah, Aikido can bloody well hurt, but the philosophy as interpreted by Ueshiba wannabes and other practitioners doesn’t take away from the fact that if practiced recklessly, CAN result in injury. Guess that’s the nature of the game huh?
    Thing with grappling is that it can be hard to control when there is speed and intent involved, not like sparring with covered hands, gloves whatever. Mind you, when sparring in Ju-Jitsu, my sensei have me one or two chipped teeth, a nice shiner and a bleeding nose (separate occasions). That was mainly due to my inexperience but I kept turning up. It was a bruising experience and apparently we weren’t even the hardest club in my city! ( I saw a lot of people come and go though…)

    So when Aikido does ramp up a little and you get into more free-style and randori, it IS actually hard to execute good technique without resorting to using strength and speed to make up timing. I guess the perfect “Aikido” throw is one where your opponent is relatively unharmed (in a training, dojo environment), but in a more dangerous situation, you can seriously hurt someone, especially if they can’t break-fall properly. Is this contradicting? It seems so, but the philosophy isn’t necessary to understand the dynamics of how weight and positioning of the throw works. I’m into my physics, but I’ve also seen the multitude of “Ki” and “harmony” stuff that exists out there and if that works for them, then why not?, so yeah I guess Aikido is somewhat paradoxical.
    I dunno, it’s late and I’ve been busy doing other stuff, what do you guys think?

    P.S When I’m talking about Aikdo, I’m not talking about “sparring” per-se as this isn’t part of the curriculum. A boxer who knew what they were doing would just keep an Aikidoka at bay and not give them anything solid to work with.
    I think for anyone doing Aikido, another style using more strikes should be used as Aikido simply lacks these basic aspects, it avoids the whole sparring thing (mostly) and attack. Ground fighting would also be good to supplement it.
    Oh wait, MMA anyone? Crap.
    :eusa_eh:
  5. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2005 7:09am


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As an aside, I found it very hard to mix Aikido and a striking art (ie MT). The transition from punching to an Aikido technique is really difficult; you need to be in a completely different state of mind.

    On the other hand Judo works very, very well. Get to a clinch using MT and you have endless opportunities to trip your opponent and take them down.
  6. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2005 8:10am


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Noodle
    I personally don’t like driving females into the mat

    *laugh* *sTHE N-WORD*


    (sorry)
  7. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2005 9:51am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    It's not the same. Many (most?) Aikido moves cannot be performed easily in a controlled manner. "Not easily" means in my experience at least 8+ years of practice and the attainment of a 3rd dan. And even then the aikidoka will not be performing those moves in a controlled manner reliably. The point at which you are dislocating wrists comes too quickly and too easily, ergo the Aikido moves are prone to causing long term injury, ergo the fallacy that Aikido is a "peaceful" art that would allow you to overcome your opponent without causing injury to them.
    I'm not sure where you are getting this from. I have 15 years on the mats, 10 in Aikido, a 2nd Dan, my own school, and I am in the middle of writing a book on Aikido, and I have never seen that. I can't name a single technique that can't be learned to be performed in a controlled manner in a matter of hours. And when you test for rank in my org. you have to be able to perform every technique in a controlled manner.

    This includes some of the more brutal techniques like irimi-nage, juju-nage, and koshi-nage.

    And again you are missing the "Peaceful" definition as Aikidoka use and understand it, DCS has said it best, and to summerize, It's more peaceful than a curb stomping, and I'm not going to severely injure you unless I have too.


    Also. In muay thai drill practice you strike full force, and your partner doesn't drop down and fake a KO. When you apply a say, juji gatame in Judo you do it all the way until the other person taps, and the other person can resist (ie pull back, not wait until their arm is ripped out) as much as they want. I'm a Judo noob but haven't seen any moves in Judo that have this problem, but on this correct me if I'm wrong.
    Same in Aikido as in Judo. The lock is applied until the guy taps. Once you move beyond the total compliance stage of learning a throw, which should end within a few weeks of first learning a throw, the uke will put up deferent levels of resistance and try different things until the throw is inevitable, and then hit ukemi out of self preservation. If you know of an Aikido school where people fake a KO, well, that's their problem, not Aikido in general, as in even some of the worst Aikido schools I have ever visited, I have not seen that.

    And it's not the same as sparring full contact because it's not at all sparring. Sparring teaches a whole set of skills that you (imho) cannot possibly learn by drilling technique, compliantly or with any amount of resistance.
    That depends on to amount and type of Atemi the individual school uses. We like to go at it a little harder. Not saying you go to an Aikido school to learn striking, but nor is it completely absent at most schools, and individual school practice it at different levels and different intensities.


    I also have a view on all the flopping about that you have to do as a beginner (correct me if I'm wrong but that's the first two years at least). I think you train your mind & body to jump. But this is a different conversation that will take long to analyze.
    Experience has shown me that most Aikido schools do no more or less ukemi than most Judo schools.

    But could I also ask first how you train? Do you spar? How do you implement resistance? I'm frankly interested and I am not going to take the piss, or whatever. This is not a bullshido test, I just want to understand where you're coming from, and draw on your experiences. If you think that others will pick up on it and flamefest the topic, you can pm me.

    ^ Same question to DCS, and any other takers.
    Typical class starts with 5-10 minutes of warm up and solo exercises, another 5-10 minutes of ukemi. 30 minutes of waza. Then everyone gets a shot at randori with resistance, speed, and intensity determined by the individual practicioners skill level. Another 15-20 minutes of waza depending upon how long the randori took. Then we finish the night with students choice, either more waza, randori, atemi work, sparring, blending or whatever. Since I have no whitebelts at this point, they all know what they need to work on and usually come to a quick concensus.

    Once a month we break out weapons and work mostly staff but a little sword. A couple times a month we will work exclusively on striking. And depending on how I feel and what has been going on, we occasionally have Sensei Peter's Five Minute Funhouse where one lucky student gets 5 minutes to try to beat me with whatever they got. I've revently had enough of getting my ass kicked in the ring and at kickboxing, so we haven't done it that in a while.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  8. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2005 10:43am


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Peter, your post is very interesting and is in complete contrast to my own limited experience. I will not contradict your points at all, but I'll indicate where my experience differs and how. OK I'll disagree on a couple points - bear with me:)

    Mind you I do not consider my ex-dojo to have been bullshido, and I think my instructors were very good at what they were doing. The senior instructors were 6th and 5th dans with 25+ years of experience. But aikido really does me head in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    I can't name a single technique that can't be learned to be performed in a controlled manner in a matter of hours.
    [...]
    This includes some of the more brutal techniques like irimi-nage, juju-nage, and koshi-nage.
    There are some locks/throws where the point at which the technique is "on" is very (dangerously) close to injury. Also some of the standing locks/throws have to be applied very quicly in line with the motion and momentum of the attacker otherwise the attacker can easily break out of the lock. Making them even more difficult to judge.

    Examples of those are kote gaeshi throw, shiho nage throw, nikkyo, sankyo, and others (I was taught a knife disarm which leads to a very easy and sudden shoulder dislocation, the name of which eludes me right now).

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    And again you are missing the "Peaceful" definition as Aikidoka use and understand it, DCS has said it best, and to summerize, It's more peaceful than a curb stomping, and I'm not going to severely injure you unless I have too.
    Only on the assumption that you can safely perform the technique, which I'm questioning. If the technique is not applied controllably, it can lead to grave/permanent injury (dislocation/break), which is a lot worse and thus less peaceful than a curb stomping (bruises/teeth),

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    Same in Aikido as in Judo. The lock is applied until the guy taps. Once you move beyond the total compliance stage of learning a throw, which should end within a few weeks of first learning a throw, the uke will put up deferent levels of resistance and try different things until the throw is inevitable, and then hit ukemi out of self preservation. If you know of an Aikido school where people fake a KO, well, that's their problem, not Aikido in general, as in even some of the worst Aikido schools I have ever visited, I have not seen that.
    OK this is not my experience. A year on I still didn't feel that I could put on a kote gaeshi throw, nikkyo or yonkyo with sufficient control to put the technique "on" but not hurt my opponent. Conversely, I never felt that were I the attacker, I could feel when the kote gaeshi was "on" and ukemi at that point. I would have to prepare the ukemi long before.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    Typical class starts with 5-10 minutes of warm up and solo exercises, another 5-10 minutes of ukemi. 30 minutes of waza. Then everyone gets a shot at randori with resistance, speed, and intensity determined by the individual practicioners skill level. Another 15-20 minutes of waza depending upon how long the randori took. Then we finish the night with students choice, either more waza, randori, atemi work, sparring, blending or whatever. Since I have no whitebelts at this point, they all know what they need to work on and usually come to a quick concensus.

    Once a month we break out weapons and work mostly staff but a little sword. A couple times a month we will work exclusively on striking. And depending on how I feel and what has been going on, we occasionally have Sensei Peter's Five Minute Funhouse where one lucky student gets 5 minutes to try to beat me with whatever they got. I've revently had enough of getting my ass kicked in the ring and at kickboxing, so we haven't done it that in a while.
    This sounds a lot closer to my judo workout. Just so I can picture it, can you describe exactly how you do randori?

    Also in your experience. how common is this way of practice? Because I'd say that's rare as hen's teeth, maybe a handful in the world.
  9. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2005 11:20am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    There are some locks/throws where the point at which the technique is "on" is very (dangerously) close to injury. Also some of the standing locks/throws have to be applied very quicly in line with the motion and momentum of the attacker otherwise the attacker can easily break out of the lock. Making them even more difficult to judge.

    Examples of those are kote gaeshi throw, shiho nage throw, nikkyo, sankyo, and others (I was taught a knife disarm which leads to a very easy and sudden shoulder dislocation, the name of which eludes me right now).
    Sankyu is the only one I would say is like that. The rest will feel like that. With Kote gaishi, nikkyu, and shiho-nage, your body will natural respond in such a way to prevent injury, unless you are purposefully trying not to move or otherwise are limited in moving. That is why the techniques work. With Sankyu, part of the technique is to immobilize the person so they can't move away from the lock and the pain. Which is why tapping is important. But after practice, you should be able to feel where the point of no return is and keeps just to the edge of it. It really isn't a hard skill to learn. When we do law enforcement classes, we use sankyu as a lead in for hand cuffing, and the cops can usually pick up the feelling I am talking about in a matter of hours.


    Only on the assumption that you can safely perform the technique, which I'm questioning. If the technique is not applied controllably, it can lead to grave/permanent injury (dislocation/break), which is a lot worse and thus less peaceful than a curb stomping (bruises/teeth),
    This is the same with any martial art. This is why it is called martial arts and not pottery. Any technique done without control can result in injury. By the same token, I have a greater degree of control with joint locks than I do with strikes. I can immobilize without breaking, I can cause pain without permanent injury. The techniques for the most part will remain effective without necessarily injuring the other person. That is the peaceful aspect. If I punch you, I have two choices, do nothing more than annoy you, or try to knock your head off. There isn't as much middle ground on it.

    OK this is not my experience. A year on I still didn't feel that I could put on a kote gaeshi throw, nikkyo or yonkyo with sufficient control to put the technique "on" but not hurt my opponent. Conversely, I never felt that were I the attacker, I could feel when the kote gaeshi was "on" and ukemi at that point. I would have to prepare the ukemi long before.
    I would say after a year, you probably could, you just don't know it. Also, what is your yonkyu, because that is one of the safest techniques I know.


    This sounds a lot closer to my judo workout. Just so I can picture it, can you describe exactly how you do randori?
    At the basic level, say two white belts, full time designated uke and nage. Attacks are moderatly paced, limited scope, no resistance, one opponent.

    As you gain experience the number of attackers will increase, as does the speed, variety of attacks, and resistance level.

    At about the 2nd - 1st kyu level you'll start with designated Uke/Nage, and one person's goal is to stay nage as much as possible, but you see active resistance to techniques, counters, and uke/nage switching as the randori moves.

    When someone steps in with me, it's pretty much everything short of full contact - full speed. We still use the designated Uke/nage, but that is just the starting positions and if we hit stand off to remind who us who needs to be the attacker.

    Also in your experience. how common is this way of practice? Because I'd say that's rare as hen's teeth, maybe a handful in the world.
    It's not common enough, but you can find it, especially in the schools where the people are doing it for love of the art and not the money.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  10. FictionPimp is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2005 1:43pm


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think Peter H. has really done a great job so far defending the arguments. One thing that really bothers me is this aikido is a peaceful art thing. I brought this up with people and the overwhelming response is if I have ever read any of O'Sensi's teachings. It is not about peace, but about Budo. Your goal is to do the minimum needed to stop the attack with the least amount of effort. If a guy grabs my collar should I beat him to the ground with my knee's and elbows then break his fingers under foot? I'm more then capable and trained to do that, but would that esclate the conflict?

    This is the question we ask, how can we nutralize the confrontation without escalating it? This is not peaceful in my opinion. A lot of people call it peaceful but I doublt O'Sensi would say his art was peaceful (although I bet it has been translated that way). Its about Budo. Budo has been described to me as love. To love someone so much that you will kill them in a single sword strike instead of 15. If a person needs a broken wrist, then they need a broken wrist. If they need a toss on the ass, they need a toss on the ass.

    I admit I do not have a lot of experiance in aikido. I'm almost to my 6 month mark. My path has a long time to go. But I do think I have talked to a lot of great aikidoka and I understand their ideas. I know that our class is nothing like what i'm told an aikido class should be like, however it does sound a lot like peter H.'s description.

    We start slow, when I first came I was told to roll or fall from everything no matter what. I was put off by this, but I was told it was because I need to practice my falls. So for about a good month all I did was fall to the slightest touch. Slowly those touches turned more into actual throws as I learned how to fall without hesitation. Now I do not fall for anyone, but my balance must be taken from me.

    When I first started to learn techniques, people would give them to me. I would get corrected of course, but they were giving it to me and I could feel it. Now I find that the higher belts will reverse the technique on me if I dont have it. Then correct me and we will try again. This is a stage of growing resistance. When I watch the higher belts train (2nd kyu and above) they no longer just reverse, but rather work to take each other down. This is as close to full resistance you can get and looks almost exactly like the randori I am seeing in my new judo classes. Hell I've even seen it go further then standing and get taken to the mat for submissions. Of couse everyone in our class comes from a large background in a different art. And those arts get brought out on occasion to answer a question or add to our training in some way.

    The last thing I want to touch on is this. I've been hurt in my TKD/hopkiado class. I've been hurt in krav maga. I've yet to get hurt in aikido. I've never seen that kind of control and sensitivity to a technique. I'm never afraid in aikido (except from the new guys) when it comes to how hard a lock gets put on. But a lot of that comes from being in a great class.
  11. Iron Rooster is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2005 2:01pm


     Style: Multiple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Difference between -Do and -Tsu

    Dude. Aikido is not made for fighting!
    Any martial art ending with "do" is a sport.
    Notice!! Jiu Jitsu. Nin Jitsu.
    Then Ju do. Aiki do. Tae Kwon Do.

    The guys that made this stuff knew what fighting was and what exercise was.

    Aikido may teach you body movement, but it is built for exercise and teaching, not fighting.
  12. BSONE is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2005 4:05pm


     Style: ASU Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    You like the philosophical aspect which is fine. Just like in other arts some people get to the belief you can't have one with out the other. That is false. It isn't any more important to aikido than it is to Tai Chi. Again it has to do with the teacher. There are extremes on both sides.

    Thank you we agree. See this is a thread about Aikido and not other MA. If it was Xingyi or Bagua I would be saying the same exact things.

    You are also trying to find little tiny miniscule things to disagree with. Then you agree with me.


    Just like with PH I think you are defending your art and missing my points. Your posts agrees with everything I said except the philosophical aspect.

    Is that so wrong? Because I would rather have someone agree with me 95% then argue over a 5% disagreement.

    I didnt want to say this but man are you dense. Let me ask you this. What is the philosophy of aikido? You seem to know so much about it and its importance or lack of importance to the art, please tell us all what that philosophy is and why it is not important to aikido. Who have your teachers of aikido been? How long have you trained? What is your rank, and where is that rank certified through? You say Pete and I are arguing with you, and I would love to hear the above questions answered, otherwise what you have to say is just guessing.

    If you do have an extensive background in aikido, please tell me what you think the difference between aikido an aikijutsu is and why that differentiation is important.
  13. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/17/2005 8:46pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I'm dense you must have a learning disability.


    Look we can discuss this over PMs or not. I see how much training you have. It doesn't mean you are the only authority. Read what I wrote through out this thread. Not the last few pages.

    Then if you still don't see what I'm trying to say I'll answer your questions.

    Fair enough?
  14. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 6:24am


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Peter, I don't agree with all your arguments but you've raised very valid counterpoints and I'll respect that. I won't argue minor points ad nauseam, at least not until who knows, one day we meet to push hands :)

    I still stand by my opinions, but YMMV and maybe not all Aikidokas are delusional. I mean, I have stated in a previous post that Aikido can be a valid art, but it makes me want to scream. I'm fed up with, if not the art, then the state it's in.

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    OK this is not my experience. A year on I still didn't feel that I could put on a kote gaeshi throw, nikkyo or yonkyo with sufficient control to put the technique "on" but not hurt my opponent. Conversely, I never felt that were I the attacker, I could feel when the kote gaeshi was "on" and ukemi at that point. I would have to prepare the ukemi long before.
    I would say after a year, you probably could, you just don't know it.
    +rep for not going "YAY STOOPID NOOB LOLZ AT YA" I'm not sure I would have resisted the tempation myself :XXhesitan


    So, maybe the art is not "rotten to the core". Do you think there is a lot of rot out there though? Any thoughts about it?
  15. Peter H. is offline

    Professional Wrestler

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    San Angelo, TX
    Posts
    2,470

    Posted On:
    11/18/2005 9:53am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    Peter, I don't agree with all your arguments but you've raised very valid counterpoints and I'll respect that. I won't argue minor points ad nauseam, at least not until who knows, one day we meet to push hands :)

    I still stand by my opinions, but YMMV and maybe not all Aikidokas are delusional. I mean, I have stated in a previous post that Aikido can be a valid art, but it makes me want to scream. I'm fed up with, if not the art, then the state it's in.

    Also:



    +rep for not going "YAY STOOPID NOOB LOLZ AT YA" I'm not sure I would have resisted the tempation myself :XXhesitan


    So, maybe the art is not "rotten to the core". Do you think there is a lot of rot out there though? Any thoughts about it?
    There are previous posts about it, but commercial Aikido has become dominated by the Aikibunnies, the Hippies, and men who like wearing dresses and shouting in japanese. Kind of like how TKD is dominated by people who think XMA = Fighting Skill and screaming at the top of thier lungs is the same as a kiai.

    There is a lot of "Bad" Aikido out there. People who don't understand, or don't want to understand about O-Sensei, his philosophy, or why he could do what he did. People who are just going through the motions without understanding the purpose behind them.

    But there is just as much good Aikido out there. The problem is good Aikido classes tend to be small and non-commercial because it takes a lot more one-on-one work to teach good Aikido and the good Aikido instructors generally don't want to deal with the hassle of running a business and prefer to just attach themselves to another school or place like the YMCA.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn

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