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  1. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 9:54am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    I'm not sure I read you. What do you mean by "when both people know what's coming"?

    In judo, the "uke" doesn't know he is an uke until after he's flung across the room.

    I have more Aikido than Judo so far btw.

    So you just walk into a room witha bunch of guys in gi's, grab one with no warning and start chunking him?

    At some point during practice, you don't stand with a partner and say, "Ok dude, shoulder throw time." and then take turns practicing the technique?

    BTW: I have A LOT more Aikido than I have Judo, and I think I have A LOT more of both than you do.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  2. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 10:16am


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    So you just walk into a room witha bunch of guys in gi's, grab one with no warning and start chunking him?

    At some point during practice, you don't stand with a partner and say, "Ok dude, shoulder throw time." and then take turns practicing the technique?
    Yes, when we drill technique. Is the purpose of this question to derail my point?

    However at another point during practice (that's EVERY practice), I stand with a partner and we try to throw each other with no predetermined attack, no predetermined outcome, and no predetermined attacker/defender role.

    Which was my point in my initial post. Aikido doesn't do this ^.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    BTW: I have A LOT more Aikido than I have Judo, and I think I have A LOT more of both than you do.
    So? I'm not the one throwing random insults here.
  3. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 10:20am

    supporting member
     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    In judo, the "uke" doesn't know he is an uke until after he's flung across the room.
    I do not think that came out as you intended. Can you clarify?
  4. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 10:29am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    Yes, when we drill technique. Is the purpose of this question to derail my point?

    However at another point during practice (that's EVERY practice), I stand with a partner and we try to throw each other with no predetermined attack, no predetermined outcome, and no predetermined attacker/defender role.

    Which was my point in my initial post. Aikido doesn't do this ^.



    So? I'm not the one throwing random insults here.
    You asked for someone who has done this, that is me.

    And I am not throwing random insults, I'm calling you an inexperienced idiot who doesn't have a clue what you are talking about and decided to jump on the Aikido bashing wagon because you thought it would be fun and are now being exposed for the moron you are.

    Nothing random about it.
    Last edited by Peter H.; 11/16/2005 10:36am at .
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 10:39am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    See, I think everyone is a little high strung right now.

    BSONE thinks I'm insulting Aikido. I'm not. I'm saying if you train it safe (like many of the Aikidoka are saying not all but many), it is the art of peace, blah blah blah it is a cultural preservation of Aikido. It has stopped being a MA.

    I just can't agree with people that say it takes 10 years to learn something, to the point, where you can't use it because it is to dangerous.

    If it is to dangeous to use properly how can an experienced aikidoka train someone else. The only way is to shed the philosphy during your training.
  6. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 11:02am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    I just can't agree with people that say it takes 10 years to learn something, to the point, where you can't use it because it is to dangerous.

    If it is to dangeous to use properly how can an experienced aikidoka train someone else. The only way is to shed the philosphy during your training.
    The 10 years thing is an excuse people who aren't training properly use to explain why they and their student's can't use it effectively. I'm not saying Aikido is all you need to know or it is the end all eb all of martial arts, but if you train hard and properly, you should be able to execute 2 or 3 techniques against resisting opponents in realistic situations after a few months, and you should know enough to be able to get yourself out of a fight and run away by that time as well.


    The dangerous aspect comes from two things: Dipshits who don't know what they are talking about and the fact that two green practitioners can seriously **** each other up without supervision. I broke a guys shoulder when we where both white belts, and that was in class with proper supervision. I've also knocked a guy out during my 1st kyu test and had my wrist messed up during another guys test and been bounced so hard that I had to take time off. The last thing any instructor wants is two white belts practicing on their own and acidentally hurting each other, so generally instructors will just say it's too "dangerous" for you to do when out of class, so don't.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  7. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 11:02am


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    You asked for someone who has done this, that is me.

    And I am not throwing random insults, I'm calling you an inexperienced idiot who doesn't have a clue what you are talking about and decided to jump on the Aikido bashing wagon because you thought it would be fun and are now being exposed for the moron you are.

    Nothing random about it.
    Sure, since you are not actually disputing any of my points, this is also known as trolling.

    I'm not someone who "decided to jump on the Aikido bashing wagon because you thought it would be fun", I invested a year of hard work on the art. REAL hard work.

    I did not even flame the art, I merely pointed out its paradox and inefficiency.

    You started name calling and apart from a lame attempt at derailing my point, offered no argument whatsoever.

    And at this very point, you sir are sounding like an ass.
  8. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 11:06am


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    [...] but if you train hard and properly, you should be able to execute 2 or 3 techniques against resisting opponents in realistic situations after a few months, and you should know enough to be able to get yourself out of a fight and run away by that time as well.
    (my emphasis)

    What? No chance except as a very rare exception.

    In the organisation I trained with I could easily wipe the floor with any 1st dan (3-4 years). If they stuck to using only aikido, I could take them all on at the same time.

    EDIT: And I don't mean it as an achivement on my part. They would be spanked by a 12 yr old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    The dangerous aspect comes from two things: Dipshits who don't know what they are talking about and the fact that two green practitioners can seriously **** each other up without supervision. I broke a guys shoulder when we where both white belts, and that was in class with proper supervision. I've also knocked a guy out during my 1st kyu test and had my wrist messed up during another guys test and been bounced so hard that I had to take time off. The last thing any instructor wants is two white belts practicing on their own and acidentally hurting each other, so generally instructors will just say it's too "dangerous" for you to do when out of class, so don't.
    Great. So how does this make Aikido a "peaceful" art?
    Last edited by KnuckleMeister; 11/16/2005 11:08am at .
  9. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 11:11am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    Is Aikido the martial arts equivalent of alcoholism?....
    Beer waza r00lz!!11!

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    Aikido is against its own existence. It's supposed to be an art where you don't hurt your opponent but ....
    It's supposed to be an art where you don't hurt your opponent more than the estrictly necessary to end the fight. And if (BIG IF) you can end the fight withouth hurting your opponent less trouble to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    ..its moves are so dangerous that the slightest amount of resistence may cause permanent injury to your opponent
    Id depends on what you call "the slightest amount of resistence", sometimes **** happens, like in every MA but the injures i've seen, had and caused were bad falls (bad luck and poor falling skills), overzealous nages and ukes in "i'm not going to tap" mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    It's supposed to be a gentle, flowing art where noone gets hurt and your opponent is awed by the amazing flow of energy.
    Judo is iirc the "gentle way". Aikido is gentle in comparison to chopping off heads with swords or punching and kicking people until their faces look like hamburguers.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    Yet it can't be practived alive because of the high risk of injury.
    Disagree. But you have a good point.

    Personally i think the lack of aliveness is more related to the supposed competition ban Ueshiba Morihei made than safety issues. Alive training can be seen as a form of competition and competition is taboo in Aikido because is

    a) ego driven: I agree with this at some point. If you train with "aliveness" in aikido in a "i win/you lose" mindset you're not doing aikido, but i don't have any problem with the "i win/you win" (both winning because both are learning) mindset.

    b) a test of your (and your partner) skills: Lots of people in the Aikido world doesn't want to be tested and prefer to live in a perennial delusion about their deadly skills

    About the safety issue, i suggest you to read thisarticle.


    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    On the other hand, Muay Thai and Boxing do just fine full force. In judo you can throw people around and choke them with impunity full force full resistance, in BJJ I hear the same.

    WTF is it with Aikido that makes it so gentle?
    You can do alive training in Aikido with more or less the same risks you take in Judo IF YOU WANT. But, like in the previously said arts, of course you need another people with the same interests to practice with, and it's the most difficult part.


    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    And cut the BS with "resistant" and "practical" aikido. Get this people, you are only practicing with resistance if there is no predetermined attacker and defender, no predetermined attack or defense technique, and both opponents equally want to Unify with teh Universe their opponent.
    Corrected :)
  10. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 11:13am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    You started name calling and apart from a lame attempt at derailing my point, offered no argument whatsoever.

    And at this very point, you sir are sounding like an ass.
    I didn't derail your point. I pointed out that you are clueless, inexperienced, and are probably lieing about what you know or have done.

    You claimed:
    Get this people, you are only practicing with resistance if there is no predetermined attacker and defender, no predetermined attack or defense technique, and both opponents equally want to defeat their opponent.
    And then you asked for someone who has doen this with Aikido.

    I said I have and called Bullshit on your statement.

    Then you said:
    In judo, the "uke" doesn't know he is an uke until after he's flung across the room.
    Locu asked you to clarify, because to everyone who has actually stepped onto a mat would call BS on this regardless. And you chose to ignore this and instead concentrate on the fact that I insulted you to hide the fact that you are exactly what I said you are.

    And yes, I am an insulting assholish jerk to clueless morons who try to stick their opinions in where they would be better served shutting the **** up. If you have a problem with that, well, **** you, I don't care.

    Oh, and whining that you are being trolled will get you no sympathy here, go do that on E-Budo.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  11. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 11:24am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleMeister
    (my emphasis)

    What? No chance except as a very rare exception.

    In the organisation I trained with I could easily wipe the floor with any 1st dan (3-4 years). If they stuck to using only aikido, I could take them all on at the same time.

    EDIT: And I don't mean it as an achivement on my part. They would be spanked by a 12 yr old.



    Great. So how does this make Aikido a "peaceful" art?
    Then go train somewhere else if you are looking for someone you caannot beat.

    Everyone should crosstrain because Aikido doesn't have the answer for every situation, no martial art does, and with the exeptions of the frauds and the delusional, no one claims their art does.

    If I stepped into kickboxing and only used Aikido, I would get hammered, so I didn't, I kicked and punched back. When I rolled with Hedge at the throwdown, I knew pure Aikido wouldn't suffice. Elias is one of my students who is trong as an ox and boxed prior to studying with me, I know when we really go at it "Pure" Aikido isn't going to cut it.

    How does it make Aikido a "Peaceful" art? Read DCS's point. The underlying philosophy of Aikido is to get my ass out of the fight as quickly as possible and if I have to stick around, try not to get myself or the other guy severly injured or killed.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  12. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 11:25am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    And yes, I am an insulting assholish jerk to clueless morons who try to stick their opinions in where they would be better served shutting the **** up. If you have a problem with that, well, **** you, I don't care.

    Oh, and whining that you are being trolled will get you no sympathy here, go do that on E-Budo.
    That's gentleness.
    :love2:
  13. Peter H. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 11:31am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    That's gentleness.
    :love2:
    Yeah, I'm all about peace and love and crap, now hand me my baby sammich.
    :love1:
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  14. KnuckleMeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 11:43am


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    Aikido is gentle in comparison to chopping off heads with swords or punching and kicking people until their faces look like hamburguers.
    Fair enough, except in boxing (and thai boxing) you don't punch and kick people THAT much, if that's what you mean. That's just senseless violence. A few bruises, at most a broken rib is all you get.

    However say in Judo you can throw someone without them having to jump (eg a kote gaeshi throw).

    So in comparison with other arts, striking and grappling, I'd classify Aikido as a lot more dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    Personally i think the lack of aliveness is more related to the supposed competition ban Ueshiba Morihei made than safety issues.
    OK, I haven't heard this point before. Everyone I've spoken to up to now has given me the "too dangerous" line which agrees with my own experience (jump or your wrist gets it). This and the frankly, silly atemi. But that could have been just my school, I won't generalise here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    Corrected :)
    Quite right:)
  15. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2005 11:43am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay Peter H. quit picking my posts apart to find something to disagree with okay?

    Let me restate my position that way you can attack me correctly. Right now you are arguing with Knuckle and the residual is hitting me.

    We agree that training is important. We agree that philoshpy is important.

    We disagree with Philosphy+Training=Aikido MA.

    I don't agree with the 10 year statement which unless I'm wrong you don't either.

    I don't agree with the too deadly to train which I think you seem to agree with me.

    I'm saying that philosphy doesn't have to be part of MA to make it a MA. I think this is where we disagree.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 11/16/2005 11:47am at .

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