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  1. fanatical is offline
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    Hi, guys

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2005 11:38am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FictionPimp
    This is true if you want to fight. Aikido aims not to fight, but to halt agression before the fight. 2 level headed people will almost never fight on the street. One person has to be pissed off enough to come at the other. This usually means he will do something stupid (at least in 90% of the fights I've seen) At this point you can (in theory) use aikido to halt that attackers agression and difuse the situation.

    The goal is to be as gentle as you can. If you hit me in the face, i'm going to respond with more agression. And this will only end with police or one of us being dead/or out cold. The theory behind aikido is to difuse your attacker and show him that you are really taking it easy on him. To make it 'effortless'. Hopefully this will calm him down (especially if he's pinned). This doesn't mean you dont use strenght or attack if you need to. Its just a way to try to stop the fight before someone gets hurt. I dont think its about combat as much as halting agression. This is why a lot of police and prison guards look into aikido (at least around here). If you really just want to hurt someone bad I'm sure there are a lot more ways to do it.

    But I wasn't trying to talk about the proper way to throw a good punch. I was talking about the dynamics of using aikido in conflict. I am new to aikido, and I'm not 100% on anything yet. I've only done it a few months. My background is in harder styles with a lot of medium contact sparing (sometimes with takedowns when I worked with friends who do other styles). I'm not really a stranger to fighting. I can see when aikido can be useful (at least at my level) and when it is not useful. I can see that there is a lot to learn from aikido. Just like there is a lot to learn in any martial art. I have yet to practice anything I would discount as un-useful. I would be the first to tell you what I think is useful and what I think is not useful. I have a few examples from my tkd training. And even a few from krav maga (our choke defenses for example were worthless against anyone stronger then you were). I'm sure I will find some things that are useless in my opinon with aikido. But my instructor is very good (imho) and he does realate a lot to real world applications, and our style is a lot harder (a lot more striking and more resistance then normal). So i'm not too worried.

    But as I've said. I dont do it to fight.
    You could take a second to read over what you just posted here. "the goal is to be as gentle as you can" ... so you respond with MORE agression? And possibly will end up KILLING someone? Yeah ok....

    "It's just a way to try to stop the fight before someone gets hurt." Yeah, by KILLING them? What is with the killing in some styles? I love how people can look down on MMA, and then accept Aikido or other "deadlies" who constantly proclaim that "if some drunk takes a swing at me, I'M GONNA KILL 'IM!!!112"

    There's a police officer who trains Jujitsu where I train, because he feels it has principles and techniques that aid his job, among other things. So if Aikido KILLS people, how is that good for an officer of the law?

    What I'm saying is, you should have left out the killing part.. it colors the entire post and makes it look like you're talking ****.

    And here it affects how I read the rest of the post. You say you're no stranger to fighting, yet you seem to be under the impression that your aikido will kill people readily. And how the hell can you say a HARD style, trains MEDIUM contact? Or were you just talking about mainly striking? If so then I can understand.

    I know a few people who won't agree with you on Krav Maga's choke defenses being strength dependant. And using TKD's non-existant self defense as an example does NOT make me turn around and see Aikido in a new light.

    And we're back to the killing. Real world applications.. like KILLING people. And escalating situations to damage people severely because they hit you. Which is exactly what Aikido as I understand tries NOT to do. Which you say yourself, but then moments later ... enter the killing.

    Conclusion? This may have been an OK post, but "the deadly" ALWAYS fucks it up.
    More human than human is our motto.
  2. PirateJon is offline
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    and good morning to you too

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2005 11:39am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsujinken
    actually although i don't necessarily believe it, Ueshiba was reportedably able to phase through time and space.
    :thumbsup:


    I mean, **** fighting when you can teleport their ass. Jurassic-Park-jitsu!
    Last edited by PirateJon; 10/24/2005 11:58am at .
  3. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2005 12:05pm


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    You could take a second to read over what you just posted here. "the goal is to be as gentle as you can" ... so you respond with MORE agression? And possibly will end up KILLING someone? Yeah ok....

    "It's just a way to try to stop the fight before someone gets hurt." Yeah, by KILLING them? What is with the killing in some styles? I love how people can look down on MMA, and then accept Aikido or other "deadlies" who constantly proclaim that "if some drunk takes a swing at me, I'M GONNA KILL 'IM!!!112"

    There's a police officer who trains Jujitsu where I train, because he feels it has principles and techniques that aid his job, among other things. So if Aikido KILLS people, how is that good for an officer of the law?

    What I'm saying is, you should have left out the killing part.. it colors the entire post and makes it look like you're talking ****.

    And here it affects how I read the rest of the post. You say you're no stranger to fighting, yet you seem to be under the impression that your aikido will kill people readily. And how the hell can you say a HARD style, trains MEDIUM contact? Or were you just talking about mainly striking? If so then I can understand.

    I know a few people who won't agree with you on Krav Maga's choke defenses being strength dependant. And using TKD's non-existant self defense as an example does NOT make me turn around and see Aikido in a new light.

    And we're back to the killing. Real world applications.. like KILLING people. And escalating situations to damage people severely because they hit you. Which is exactly what Aikido as I understand tries NOT to do. Which you say yourself, but then moments later ... enter the killing.

    Conclusion? This may have been an OK post, but "the deadly" ALWAYS fucks it up.


    woah! you misread what I said. I NEVER said aikido is about killing anyone. I never said you can't use it because its too deadly. You need to re-read what I said. What I said is that if you respond to agression with agression that you will escalate the fight until someone gets killed or knocked out. Which is what aikido aims to stop, by being gentle. I think you just looked for the word killing and added in your own words.

    When I said "If you hit me in the face, i'm going to respond with more agression. And this will only end with police or one of us being dead/or out cold." I ment that agression will only create more agression. This was ment to be a contrast to how aikido deals with the situation. In fact the only way I can see aikido killing someone is if I threw you and you accidently landed on something or your broke your neck. But that would be a very accidental and extreame case.

    I mean, why on earth would I say that killing people is good to learn to move prisoners? That makes no sense.

    So, one more time. Aikido aims to stop agression quickly through the use of distance, posture, attitude, throws and locks. It places speed agility and creativity over strenght and if done right will will allow you to control your agressor until he calms down in as gentle a way as possible for the situation.

    Is that a realistic approach? Well that all depends on how creative you are I guess.

    Could you do the same thing with judo or bjj? I'm sure you could.

    Do I do aikido to kill people with my uber leet skills? LOL sure, I'm a ninja and ****. (For those of you who dont understand sarcasim, I do not do aikido to learn how to kill/hurt people)

    *edit* I dont discount krav maga as a whole. Maybe my teacher sucked. But most of the choke defenses we learned did not work when I tested them against a physically stronger person. Maybe I wasn't in it long enough (about a year and 1/2). Or maybe my teacher just sucked (possible, it had a mcdojo feel). I do know a lot of the other things we learned were very useful to me and had a high rate of success against my partners.
    Last edited by FictionPimp; 10/24/2005 12:11pm at .
  4. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2005 12:42pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why is it the MA newbies are the ones to try and come here and teach us something. I've done Aikido longer this Katsu and never believed half the crap in his posts. ANYONE who says its easy to kill HAS NEVER DONE IT. I don't care what you think you learned you're FULL OF ****. You've never done it you don't even know what its like to take a live and you say its easy. FUCKING BULLSHIT. Then you have the TKD teenager! I did TKD before this kid was born, IN KOREA and yet posts as if he has something valid to say. What is going on with the kids today!?!?! (Oh **** am I getting OLD?!?!? OH GOD NO!!!)

    Anyways KATSU READ THIS:

    Interview with Mits Yamashita
    By Susan Perry and Ronald Rubin
    Reprinted with permission from Aikido Today Magazine

    Mits Yamashita (Yoshinkan 5th dan) teaches self-defense at several LA-area colleges. Besides studying Aikido, he has trained in Tang Soo Do, Yanagi Jujitsu, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, and Gracie-style Brazilian Jujitsu.

    ATM
    Sensei, please tell us a little about your background. Where did you grow up? How did you become interested in the martial arts?

    Mits
    I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and I was educated in the Long Beach area. I attribute my background in the martial arts to my dad. He had been a street fighter in Japan before the war. Before he studied Judo, he would just beat people up - afterward, he would throw them around and get himself into deeper trouble. I think that's why he really didn't want me to study martial arts. He would take me to Judo schools, but he wouldn't urge me practice.

    One day, when I was home sick from school, I heard someone say that a 13-year-old Aikido student who had gotten into an altercation was able to throw three boys effortlessly. That seemed impossible. I asked my friends whether they knew of any Aikido schools, but they said that there were none around.

    A couple of years later, a friend told me about a nearby school, whose teacher was a man named Virgil Krank, a very nice guy. Krank's teacher, Tom Combes Sensei, had studied Aikido in Japan under Shioda Sensei. A year or two into my practice, my teacher invited Kimeda Sensei to come to the United States - just to visit, I think. But Kimeda Sensei stayed at the school for two years. He was a little guy, but he pushed much bigger people all over the mat. I was very impressed. I achieved black belt under Kimeda Sensei before he moved.

    Around 1968, I assisted my instructor in an Aikido-based class at a local college for police. At the time, there were only two such defensive tactics classes in the state. Eventually, my instructor asked me to take over the class, and I reluctantly agreed. On the first day, I had a rude awakening, which I can still remember. I picked the biggest guy there and announced that, once I got him in sankyo, he wouldn't be able to get out. But he got out. He was a wrestler, and he tied me up like a pretzel. The other students formed a circle, like Indians around a covered wagon, whispering, "Watch the master - he'll be out in no time." But I couldn't get out; I was stuck there for 20 minutes until the guy let me up.

    That was so humiliating that I decided to learn some wrestling, and I studied it for two or three years. I thought I got pretty good, and I was teaching wrestling moves along with Aikido. But wrestling didn't work for all the police in the class. Some of the female officers weren't strong enough to wrestle. Also, wrestling is weight-sensitive art: if you weigh 130 pounds, the odds of your beating a 150-pounder is almost nil. So, I became discouraged about wrestling. But I still knew that Aikido needs ground technique of some kind. If an Aikidoist takes a person to the ground, and the person squirms out of the pin, what is the Aikidoist going to do?

    One day a Karate man came in and punched and kicked me all around the room. "It's time to learn Karate," I figured. So, I studied Karate for 12 years. I studied with Chuck Norris when he was just starting, and I got my second-degree black belt under him.

    "Now," I thought, "my martial arts are complete. I have the joint locks of Aikido, the kicking and punching of Karate, and the groundwork of wrestling." But a boxer came in and boxed me all over the place. I figured I had to learn a little boxing.

    I thought that, by learning various arts, I could fill in the gap and orient Aikido more toward self-defense. I was teaching police officers who had to go out every night and use what they had learned, and I wasn't confident in telling them, "Just go out there and do kotegaeshi."

    Q
    Did you ever find what you were looking for?

    Mits
    What brought everything together for me was the Brazilian Jujitsu of the Gracie family. A policeman who was one of my students told me about a new form of Jujitsu that focused on ground grappling, and my ears perked up. When I went to look at the art, Rorion Grace (who later became my teacher) introduced me to his father, Master Helio Gracie, who was then 75 years old. "Mits, this is my dad," Rorion said. "He says that he wants to wrestle you." Knowing that Helio only spoke Portuguese, I said to Rorion, "I'm stronger than he is, and I'm in great shape. Your father looks old to me." To my surprise, Rorion translated what I had said for his father - and then he translated the reply for me: "My dad says that now he really wants to wrestle you - and, if you go easy with him, he's going to hurt you." I thought, "Oh, my goodness!"

    When we grappled, it was no contest. I attacked this man, who was 75 years old and weighed about 130 pounds, with everything I had, but there was nothing I could do to him! He would neutralize my attacks without breaking a sweat. He would hold me down, laugh, and talk to his son while I was struggling. If I did manage get out of a hold, he would put me in another. For 30 minutes, I was humiliated.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

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    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
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  5. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2005 12:52pm

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     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA
    Why is it the MA newbies are the ones to try and come here and teach us something. I've done Aikido longer this Katsu and never believed half the crap in his posts. ANYONE who says its easy to kill HAS NEVER DONE IT. I don't care what you think you learned you're FULL OF ****. You've never done it you don't even know what its like to take a live and you say its easy. FUCKING BULLSHIT. Then you have the TKD teenager! I did TKD before this kid was born, IN KOREA and yet posts as if he has something valid to say. What is going on with the kids today!?!?! (Oh **** am I getting OLD?!?!? OH GOD NO!!!)

    Anyways KATSU READ THIS:

    AWESOME.
    Learn you fucking noobes !!

    That whole posted should be stickied for all eternity !!!
  6. Neildo is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2005 1:11pm

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     Style: FBSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But....all that training and Mits still got his ass kicked.

    Maybe he should have taken up knitting?
  7. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2005 5:41pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, this thread has already gone on quite a ways, but let me take you all back to the days of page 1, when Katsusomething said...
    And I'm not stupid
    Oh, I beg to differ. And, unless you are using secret mental powers or a chi-blast, ANY ma technique uses physical strength. Walking and lifting your arm uses physical strength. Get it?

    ...Probably not, but you have to admit, I tried.
  8. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2005 6:13pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Plasmagoat said...
    You are actually baiting me right now.
    Why, yes. I am.
  9. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    ...is THE PENETRATOR

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    Posted On:
    11/12/2005 6:18pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Janggoon
    There's no best art. All martial arts were created for the purpose of fighting. And every martial art gets that done.

    What a charming statement. Do you have any evidence to back it up? Which is comparable to the evidence given in this thread about ways in which most aikido falls short?
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
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  10. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    ...is THE PENETRATOR

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    Posted On:
    11/12/2005 6:23pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigil222
    Anyone read that interview as of yet?
    I have. It rocked.

    Yes. They blend together perfectly. Brazilian Jujitsu is the only art that compliments Aikido. The arts have the same basic principles.

    Very good article.
    Last edited by Wounded Ronin; 11/12/2005 6:32pm at .
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  11. chaosexmachina is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2005 7:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA/Pankration

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What is this article you speak of!?
    "The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall." - Mitch Hedberg

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  12. Sun Wukong is offline
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    ¡Viva los Muertos!

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2005 9:37am


     Style: Boxing/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    boy, i wish i'd caught this one earlier. yeah, everybody's heard how aikido is the **** when in aikido class, what they don't tell you is all the material you are missing and how even after 4, 5, or 10 years you still don't know anything about take down defenses or even the basics of ground skill. this poor guy is a child lost in the woods.

    Anyone who says that fighting doesn't require any strength must be talking about fighting with children. Ueshiba was a frickin' nut job. Got two words of advice for aikido guy: Judo Tournament. Try "floating" while some huge guerilla with 4 months of training tries to pull your arms out of their sockets in an attempt to smash you into the ground in anyway that he can.

    Also, on the," it can't be practiced safely" note, I know, in theory what you are talking about. Problem is, grabbing someone by the neck isn't as deadly as you think and isn't applied as easily as you seem to think. Breaking bones... have you ever seen anyone with a broken bone in class... no you practice safely. I've had one broken bone in my life when a bush hog on the back of a tractor swung out, knocked me feet out from under me and ran it's sled over my shin. That freaking tractor was heavy. It crushed my ankle like a beer can and I couldn't walk for 6 months without crutches.

    Other than that, I've been in lot's of fights (I'm a jackass), had 2 whole tours of duty in the army, had huge fucking guerrilla's try to destroy my arms in judo using ALOT of the same techniques they use in aikido without any contraints as to how hard they apply them, been dropped from at least 6 feet in the air multiple times during randori and competition, hell most painful memory is of a guy well over 300 lbs picking me up, literally jumping up and driving me into the ground with my ribs in between his shoulder and the very very hard ground and I never ever broke anything. Am i lucky or do i have teh skillz? Hell no, I'm a wreckless clumsy accident prone son of a bitch. I've been to the emergency room for stitches nearly every year since i was 19.

    Limbs are very hard to break. Joints are very hard to break. Why? Because they are surrounded by supporting tissue. Muscles, ligaments, cartilage all of which keep bones pliable, absorb pressure and hold joints together. Hell, not one of those arm bars, wrist locks, or throws are going to be done without using strength when your opponent is resisting. If you think otherwise, get a green belt judoka to sign a waiver and test ueshiba's theories. Use a huge mat and get one of your young aikido guys in there to give it test drive. Or, go to a Bullshido throwdown. Where people will be happy to politely test it for you. This guys aren't that bad, sure some of us talk alot of trash but person to person these guys are rational and not think with their fists first kinds of guys. If that were so, we'd all be posting from a correctional facilty.

    So where do you live? Just ask someone on here who lives near you to come along. Say you don't want to make a big deal out of it, don't get worked up, and I'm hoping they won't get worked up either. Keep it professional and give a twirl. If you don't feel like something is seriously wrong afterwards, then good for you. Otherwise, take some BJJ, Judo, or art with similar technical qualities and see how you feel about Aikido afterwards.

    Man, I'm going to shoot straight with you here. I was an aikido personage for quite some time in Tomiki ryu aikido. The material is technically sound, but philosophically flawed and broadly misrepresented. Hell, most of your instructors probably believe every word of it... that's the issue isn't it. Every word coming from anyone isn't always true is it? When all of the voices used to determine a given ideology are 100% united then they are either 100% right, or fatally flawed.
    Last edited by Sun Wukong; 11/13/2005 9:40am at .
    A lie gets half-way around the world before the truth has time to get it's pants on. - Winston Churchhill
  13. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2005 10:10am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsujinken
    Even Tai Chi when taught as a true martial art is very effective when mastered
    Tai Chi when taught as a martial art involves getting fit and doing lots of sparring and wrestling with hard contact. Just like anything else which works in a fight.

    Being an 'internal' style doesn't let you sidestep those basic requirements.
  14. BSONE is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2005 5:27pm


     Style: ASU Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aikido is supposed to be an art of peace, NOT the art of fighting. If you want to fight well, then fight full contact to knock out as often as possible with highly skilled fighters. If you want to learn aikido, then train aikido as often as possible with highly skilled aikidoka. Anything in between is pure bullshido.
  15. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2005 5:48pm

    staff
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BSONE
    Aikido is supposed to be an art of peace, NOT the art of fighting. If you want to fight well, then fight full contact to knock out as often as possible with highly skilled fighters. If you want to learn aikido, then train aikido as often as possible with highly skilled aikidoka. Anything in between is pure bullshido.
    What you said is pure bullshido. The only way to become skilled is through practice. Now, to become skilled, at some point you were a beginner. SO, technically you are saying there are no skilled aikidoka because you are either skilled or not. Everything in between is bullshido.


    Then Aikido isn't a Martial Art. It is cultural preservation of joint locks.

    This is why Aikido is going the way of exercise Tai Chi. It is hard to find fighting teachers of these 2 styles because of BS like what you just said.
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