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  1. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/21/2005 11:21am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    A letter I wrote to the local paper...

    To the Editor,
    A while ago I was standing on Main Street protesting the Iraq War and Logan High School boys, football jock types by the look of them, drove by yelling, "We love Bush!" While annoying in itself, this mostly just made me sad because it reminded me of Doug. And Doug is dead.

    I rented an apartment to Doug for several years. He was from a small town in this valley and when the call to serve his country came, he went and did his patriotic duty, and saw a lot of combat in Vietnam. I was a "hip" city kid myself, and I was busy protesting the war and in no way shape or form was about to go to Vietnam. But Doug had been raised with the values of duty, honor, and sadly and importantly, not questioning authority. I had traveled the world, gone off to college, and knew in my heart and mind that the war was illconcieved; based on the wrong assumptions by blinded leaders. And now, virtually all those leaders, including McNamara himself, who was the Secretary of Defense for both Kennedy and Johnson, the "architect" of the war, now admits that it was a "mistake," and "unwinnable." That he knew this by 1967 and let tens of thousands suffer and die for the next several years, is unforgivable.

    Doug, however, didn't have the upbringing that I had. He was raised by good people and in a strong church right here in Cache Valley, or as it was still called in those days, Happy Valley. He believed in America. He believed in doing the right thing. And while I loved America, I thought that the government of America was led by corrupt morons and war making fools. But Doug never thought in those terms back in those days, he loved his country, he believed his teachers and his leaders.

    Doug told me once that he, "was an old man." I couldn't argue. He was old, even though we were the same age. Things had happened to him in Vietnam that changed him, that hurt him, that aged him, that tore him up, and that in the end killed him, killed him as true as a bullet fired by a Vietcong into his heart. But I sit here, free as a bird, the old draft card burning hippie protester, and I miss him. Doug was betrayed by this country, Doug was killed by this country.

    So to the kids yelling, "We love Bush!" go ahead and keep believing the lies, go ahead sign up and serve and do your duty to God and Country, and I'll pray that God has mercy on you. He didn't seem to have much mercy for Doug.

    Patrick Easterling, Logan, Utah
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  2. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2005 12:11pm

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     Style: In Transition

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Awesome letter, but I doubt they'll print it. It's too smart for them. :(

    PL
  3. StinkyFlower is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2005 1:13pm


     Style: Chinese Pugilism

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Great letter!
  4. Leodom is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2005 1:42pm


     Style: CMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are you saying that the Bush administration is as corrupt as the Kennedy and Johnson administrations?

    I realize that you believe the current war in Iraq to be another "Vietnam" but you are mistaken.

    Just because some kids say they like George Bush you go and write some maudlin letter trying to equate the war in Iraq to the war in Vietnam.

    The only way they'll be the same is if war protesters like you convince the government to pull out before the war is won.

    I haven't studied the history of the Vietnam "police action" in detail but what little I do know does NOT match the current situation in the middle east. It more closely resembles the situation in Eastern Europe prior to WWII. (edit for clarification, the war in Iraq more closely resembles...)

    I do feel sorry for your friend Doug, but IMO it was you and the protestors (Jane Fonda and her ilk) that betrayed him. His biggest betrayal was in NOT being welcomed home as the hero that he likely was, but being accused by people like you and John Kerry as "war criminals" and "baby-killers"
    Last edited by Leodom; 10/21/2005 1:45pm at .
    People of integrity expect to be believed. When they're not, they let time prove them right.
  5. warnerj5000 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2005 2:07pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodom
    I haven't studied the history of the Vietnam "police action" in detail but what little I do know does NOT match the current situation in the middle east. It more closely resembles the situation in Eastern Europe prior to WWII. (edit for clarification, the war in Iraq more closely resembles...)
    So you're admitting here that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Vietnam.

    The majority of the population there was strongly in favor of Ho Chi Minh, and getting the American presence out of their country at all costs. They had been under occupation from China, France, Japan, and the US for hundreds of years. They wanted their country back. There would have been no way to win the war without killing more than half of the civilian population.

    The American political leaders knew this, and continued the war anyway, because they didn't want to be perceived as weak, among other reasons.
  6. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/21/2005 2:07pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodom
    I do feel sorry for your friend Doug, but IMO it was you and the protestors (Jane Fonda and her ilk) that betrayed him. His biggest betrayal was in NOT being welcomed home as the hero that he likely was, but being accused by people like you and John Kerry as "war criminals" and "baby-killers"
    So because Pat and Kerry protested against the war, they automatically are calling the soldiers "war criminals" and "baby-killers"? Maybe you should re-read the letter. From my interpretation, Pat puts our soldiers in a good light as honorable people, but attacks the administrations that "throw them to the dogs," as it were.

    The issue about being well-informed before joining the Armed Forces strikes especially close to home with me, as I graduate college in May and ship in June. I've never once felt like any of the "flag burning hippies" that populate much of my campus and I so often like to poke fun of have borne me any ill will.
  7. Leodom is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2005 2:11pm


     Style: CMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by garbanzobean
    So because Pat and Kerry protested against the war, they automatically are calling the soldiers "war criminals" and "baby-killers"? Maybe you should re-read the letter. From my interpretation, Pat puts our soldiers in a good light as honorable people, but attacks the administrations that "throw them to the dogs," as it were.

    The issue about being well-informed before joining the Armed Forces strikes especially close to home with me, as I graduate college in May and ship in June. I've never once felt like any of the "flag burning hippies" that populate much of my campus and I so often like to poke fun of have borne me any ill will.
    Whil I don't know what Pat did to protest, it is a matter of public record what John Kerry accused American Soldiers of doing. Baby-killing is just one of them, rape and pillage are two others. (I paraphrase, of course).
    People of integrity expect to be believed. When they're not, they let time prove them right.
  8. Leodom is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2005 2:13pm


     Style: CMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by warnerj5000
    So you're admitting here that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Vietnam.

    The majority of the population there was strongly in favor of Ho Chi Minh, and getting the American presence out of their country at all costs. They had been under occupation from China, France, Japan, and the US for hundreds of years. They wanted their country back. There would have been no way to win the war without killing more than half of the civilian population.

    The American political leaders knew this, and continued the war anyway, because they didn't want to be perceived as weak, among other reasons.
    This may be true, I'll take your word for it. This is not at all the case in Iraq. You support my contention that the war in Iraq is NOT like Vietnam.

    + rep for you.
    People of integrity expect to be believed. When they're not, they let time prove them right.
  9. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/21/2005 2:13pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by warnerj5000
    So you're admitting here that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Vietnam.

    The majority of the population there was strongly in favor of Ho Chi Minh, and getting the American presence out of their country at all costs. They had been under occupation from China, France, Japan, and the US for hundreds of years. They wanted their country back. There would have been no way to win the war without killing more than half of the civilian population.

    The American political leaders knew this, and continued the war anyway, because they didn't want to be perceived as weak, among other reasons.
    This isn't entirely accurate, but closer than Leodom. At any rate, this thread is probably better off not being derailed with a discussion of why we got (and stayed) involved with Vietnam.

    The short answer is: France wanted help because they fucked up, we wanted West Germany to be accepted into NATO as fast as possible, France was heeing and hawing about it, so we agreed to help. We went against an originally very pro-American rebel movement that knew how to use their terrain and our inability to effectively locate and destroy concentrated numbers of them to the fullest, and then certain administrators wouldn't back the **** down when they should have.

    Now back to why Patfromlogan is apparently calling all soldiers Baby Killers and crocodile rapists.
    Last edited by Cassius; 10/21/2005 2:24pm at .
  10. Cakemaster is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2005 2:13pm


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wouldn't mind the situation in Iraq half as much if Blair and Bush had said: "We're going in to topple a despot, and give the people a chance to rebuild their lives" instead of "WAAH WMD 45 MINUTES WAAAAH".

    The Iraqi insurgents may be beaten militarily, and even then this is not a sure bet due to external pressure factors (lack of support, decline in international standing for the aggressors), but only history will tell if people will believe that this conflict was justified in any way. Me, I hate the fact that a war was kicked off with what appears to be at best bad intelligence, or at worst a Christian's revisiting of the Crusades. That's all I'm saying.
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