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  1. MEGA JESUS-SAMA is offline
    MEGA JESUS-SAMA's Avatar

    **** you math class

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2005 3:27am

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     Style: TKD, Ballet, Archery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, but nobody maintained a lineage in them. All modern Western arts seem to date from the 18th-19th centuries* except for those that were deliberately reconstructed in the 20th. This is KFDW's point.
    Okay, but what does that mean?

    ***Basically, all this fantasizing about how a cadre of Chinese bannermen or knights did things is a dumb waste of time. I suspect that the social framework aruond violence was probably so different that it isn't easy to even know what constituted a fight when people read about them.
    So you're saying the entire field of history is a waste of time?
      #151
  2. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2005 3:28am

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     Style: Dancing the Spears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Yeah, but nobody maintained a lineage in them. All modern Western arts seem to date from the 18th-19th centuries* except for those that were deliberately reconstructed in the 20th. This is KFDW's point.
    .

    No, KFDW's point was that if you study european weapon systems you're a "rennaissance nerd".

    His other point was that unless I am related in someway to the noble class that western martial arts are not part of my cultural heritage.



    Neither of which are true.
      #152
  3. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2005 3:33am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lots of sectional weapons don't actually use a lot of stereotypical swinging and twirling. In the case of nunchaku, there's a lot of ephasis on the weapon as a short stick as well as blows that take short, direct arcs instead of wide swings. If you use a nunchaku against a bag you'll immedately see why waving one around is dumb:

    1) It doesn't take advantage of the cord to accelerate the tip of the weapon.

    2) It bounces back at you.

    The other thing that some up in my mind is that all weapons -- and especially sectional ones -- are a lot more standardized than they used to be. It's entirely likely that the three-section staff used to actually be a collapsible flail with one heavy end. Again, lookin at nunchaku, older versions were certainly of this type:.

    I suspect that a lot of weapons these days are really excessively standardized training weapons that don't look much like the real deals. Hell, of the non-bladed weapons, the only one I can think of that hasn't been altered this way is the small bench.
      #153
  4. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2005 3:47am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
    Okay, but what does that mean?
    From my perspective, it means that with few exceptions, the vast majority of contemporary martial arts systems date from the same time period. I've come to think that martial arts as we see them are very much a function of the "shrinking" of the world in the wake of colonization and inter-cultural exchange, baced by the rise of a middle class. My totally unsupported thesis is that contemporary martial arts exist as a way for people to distinguish themselves in a world where the average person has contact with the products of many cultures and wants to somehow define where he/she stand in relation to them, and that this was amplified by middle class patronage. Lots of boxers were poor, but poor people alone didn't pay them to fight. Chinese martial artists were considered to be dodgy dirtbags in a lot of situations, but they to enjoys patronage.

    Note that I'm talking about institutional civil martial arts training (I know it sounds like a contradiction -- it's vernacular "martial arts" that's at fault) -- not military skills, which have split off along their own paths.

    Aside from that, all I'm saying is that stupid argument #137 where a kung fu guy talks about his 500 year old art and some wag talks about boxing and wrestling being 2,000 years old is a dumb argument. You cannot simultanously criticize lineage stories about CMA and claim that boxing and wrestling are thousands of years old.

    So you're saying the entire field of history is a waste of time?
    No. I'm saying that imagining yourself as the inheritor of something that is substantially the same as it was centuroes ago is probably a mistake. I'd rather martial artists value their role in the evolution of the practice. That would keep dumb lineage things from getting out of hand *and* send people the message that they are a link in the evolution of their art, so they better either contribute something good to it or prevent it from getting worse.
      #154
  5. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2005 3:59am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
    No, KFDW's point was that if you study european weapon systems you're a "rennaissance nerd".

    His other point was that unless I am related in someway to the noble class that western martial arts are not part of my cultural heritage.

    Neither of which are true.
    From KFDW's point of view (assuming some attitudes on his part), ARMA's a bunch of guys who defected from the SCA to read more George Silver and diGrassi. From a certain traditional CMA perspective (which I don't happen to share), you're not on the receving end of *any* meaningful heritage unless you have a line of teachers that actually *goes back* to Silver, maestro by meastro.

    And to be frank, part of ARMA and other WMA orgs actually does come from that kind of process. Just like Tai Chi is associated with hippies.
      #155
  6. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2005 4:05am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    From KFDW's point of view (assuming some attitudes on his part), ARMA's a bunch of guys who defected from the SCA to read more George Silver and diGrassi. From a certain traditional CMA perspective (which I don't happen to share), you're not on the receving end of *any* meaningful heritage unless you have a line of teachers that actually *goes back* to Silver, maestro by meastro.

    And to be frank, part of ARMA and other WMA orgs actually does come from that kind of process. Just like Tai Chi is associated with hippies.

    The problem is that you're trying to say "KFDW's point was this".


    KFDW's point was to be inflammatory. If you're reading anything else into it beyond that then you're incorrect.

    The lineage and training methods of modern day WMA'ers is not what he was questioning, he was simply stating that having an interest in european weapons was being a "rennaissance nerd".



    Also, you're "history of the ARMA" is completely wrong aswell. The ARMA was founded soley for serious study of european martial arts. We do not dress up in costumes, roleplay, or take on fantasy names. Reconstructing and becoming proficient at our interpretation of what's taught in the manuals is the only thing we do.

    I would also assert that learning from manuals written by the masters themselves designed specifically to help you learn how to fight is a much more direct and effective method of transmission then 300+ years of taking someones word for it that this **** is effective.

    But this is all irrellevant. The three sectional staff still sucks as a weapon no matter what "lineage" of whatever martial art I or anyone else is practicing.
    Last edited by Anna Kovacs; 10/14/2005 4:07am at .
      #156
  7. Torakaka is offline
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    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2005 4:55am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    KFDW never has a point, ever. The only thing he does is whine and troll.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
      #157
  8. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2005 4:58am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
    The problem is that you're trying to say "KFDW's point was this".

    KFDW's point was to be inflammatory. If you're reading anything else into it beyond that then you're incorrect.
    Of course he was being inflammatory. My point wasn't to defend him.

    The lineage and training methods of modern day WMA'ers is not what he was questioning, he was simply stating that having an interest in european weapons was being a "rennaissance nerd".

    Yeah, because it's a known sore point to stick ARMA folks with. This is why you're following up with:

    Also, you're "history of the ARMA" is completely wrong aswell. The ARMA was founded soley for serious study of european martial arts. We do not dress up in costumes, roleplay, or take on fantasy names. Reconstructing and becoming proficient at our interpretation of what's taught in the manuals is the only thing we do.
    Y'see, I never said anything about ARMA being a bunch of roleplayers or organizationally involved in any other part of SCA culture. But apparently KFDW knows, as I do, that some of you folks go apeshit when ARMA and SCA are mentioned in the same sentence, no matter the context.

    As a matter of fact I am familiar with ARMA and I do have some experience with sport and historical fence that has nothing to do with the SCA. I do know what ARMA is for. I also know that people from the SCA *do* gravitate to groups like ARMA and that there *is* exchange between the two groups. The fact that ARMA as an org has nothing to do with reenactment doesn't mean that none of its members have anything to do with it. Nor is it really a comment on the quality of ARMA's efforts. It's just an easy way to piss you off.

    I would also assert that learning from manuals written by the masters themselves designed specifically to help you learn how to fight is a much more direct and effective method of transmission then 300+ years of taking someones word for it that this **** is effective.
    Would you care to defend that in a separate thread?

    But this is all irrellevant. The three sectional staff still sucks as a weapon no matter what "lineage" of whatever martial art I or anyone else is practicing.
    Who knows? Different weapons exist for various historical reasons. How effective is a really long late-period pike? It's good is massed formations but isn't the first choice for a personal weapon. I've mentioned other issues elsewhere. The sectional staff might be more of a tool to develop attributes, like many other CMA weapons.
      #158
  9. MEGALEF is offline

    Still digging on James Brown

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2005 5:22am


     Style: BJJ & Judo (1k)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Who knows? Different weapons exist for various historical reasons. How effective is a really long late-period pike? It's good is massed formations but isn't the first choice for a personal weapon. I've mentioned other issues elsewhere. The sectional staff might be more of a tool to develop attributes, like many other CMA weapons.
    That's kind of what I'm thinking of. If you can complete a sectional staff form without wacking yourself over the head, that means you have pretty good motor skills, which is good.
    :viking:

    I'm still not buying the 3-sectional staff being used by soldiers in a battle. Who would use it, groups of soldiers like an entire company in battle or single soldiers patrolling the streets? How were chinese armies arranged? Was the armour and weaponry standardized like in the roman legions? (Note: My only "knowledge" of these types of battles come from watching Gladiator and Alexander, playing Rome: Total War and reading a pseudo-historical novel about the crusades in middle-east.)

    edit - Perhaps it is time that some mod moved this thread to the history section.
    edit2 - Also, this thread might be relevant: Nunchaku never used as a weapon?
    Last edited by MEGALEF; 10/14/2005 5:29am at .
      #159
  10. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2005 5:30am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Of course he was being inflammatory. My point wasn't to defend him.
    Then what exactly is your point?





    Y'see, I never said anything about ARMA being a bunch of roleplayers or organizationally involved in any other part of SCA culture. But apparently KFDW knows, as I do, that some of you folks go apeshit when ARMA and SCA are mentioned in the same sentence, no matter the context.
    Of course we do, the two dont have anything to do with eachother so even attempting to compare us is just plain stupid.

    As a matter of fact I am familiar with ARMA and I do have some experience with sport and historical fence that has nothing to do with the SCA. I do know what ARMA is for. I also know that people from the SCA *do* gravitate to groups like ARMA and that there *is* exchange between the two groups. The fact that ARMA as an org has nothing to do with reenactment doesn't mean that none of its members have anything to do with it. Nor is it really a comment on the quality of ARMA's efforts. It's just an easy way to piss you off.
    You know who else gravitates to ARMA? Former Asian Martial artists, cops, and military. ARMA attracts people interested in WMA as a martial art and not as a part of a reconstructionist fantasy world or for their little "knightly"dueling games.

    There is no "exhange" between the ARMA and the SCA. Some members of the SCA may pick up bits and peices of what we do, but I dont know of anyone in ARMA that takes anything from the SCA. I practice weekly in the same park that the SCA chapter meets at the same time. I've never had any SCA guys come over and inquire about us, and we've never went over and inquired about them.

    I've considered asking them to spar, but I ask everyone to spar. That certainly doesnt mean there is "an exchange" between our two groups, they are two completely seperate activities that are only slightly related through some of the subject matter. It's the differance between kung fu movies and San Shou.





    Would you care to defend that in a separate thread?
    It's already started on the Kendo thread in "General BS", if you'd like to read that thread and continue the discussion there, by all means, feel free, I'll see you there, but I've no interest in repeating the things I've already said so please read the thread before you post.




    Who knows? Different weapons exist for various historical reasons. How effective is a really long late-period pike? It's good is massed formations but isn't the first choice for a personal weapon. I've mentioned other issues elsewhere. The sectional staff might be more of a tool to develop attributes, like many other CMA weapons.

    The three section staff is not good in formation, it's not good in one on one, it is not good in close range, it's not good far away, it's not good for offense, it's not good for defense.

    Yes, you can hit someone with it and hurt them, but it's still an inferior weapon compared to practically everything else. Which is further evidenced by the fact that it does not exist in any form in any other culture.


    And here we've reached another crux. You say the 3SS may be used to "develop attributes". KFDW insists that it has lots of utlity as a weapon. Even the defenders of the three section staff cant come to a concensus and exactly what it's purpose is.

    It's quite obvious that it's a gimmick, as Osiris said.
      #160

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