Whats goin to happen to Royce Gracie!

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 8/20/2002 6:39pm

Ok, look at Oleg Taktarov or Frank Shamrock (or for that matter any other Pancrase guy), those guys knew the guard and that knowledge did NOT come from BJJ at all. If you spend time on the ground, you'll learn the guard by default.

**Triangle** · Posted On: 8/21/2002 11:45am

Just not very well...

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 8/21/2002 6:52pm

Yeah, kind of like BJJ guys don't learn any other positions very well...like for instance there's nothing wrong with "giving your back" as long as you defend properly from the turtle.

9chambers · Posted On: 8/22/2002 2:56am

Going down on all fours can be a good move if you have more experience there than Ferrozo or Abbot. Its a standard wrestling position.

Vitor Belfort took both of those guys out the same way - by getting them on their knees and then wrapping the waist from behind and throwing punches to the back of the head until big John stopped the fight.

A veteran wrestler would have easily grabbed the arms firmly wrapped around his waist and worked any of the following techniques:

* A pig roll - tuck his arm close around your torso and when he goes to punch you with the other arm or even loosens his grip with it, then flip him off to the side by pulling the arm and falling to the ground on the side where you have his arm wrapped tight around you. Then mount him.

* A sit-out - This is a standard revearsal move. You get wrist control of one of the arms around your waist with your opposite arm, step with the same leg as your arm that grabbed, and slide the other leg through to a sitting position on the mat. Then you can hook around with your free arm to grab his leg or torso as you turn to face him.

- or just wait till he strikes and sit-out as you hook under his striking arm with your elbow.

*Reach back over his arm and hook under his leg, if its close like while he is punching, hook him at the knee, turn and drive him to his back as you dig your shoulder into his pelvis. Get the side mount.

* If he throws an arm over your shoulder to go for a choke you can grab it at the tricep and drag it as you drive your shoulder to the mat and flip him just like the stand-up throw in Judo.

*** Remember to keep your head tucked and your shoulders raised. You may be able to bounce strikes off with your shoulders by twisting when you feel him tense.

- if you manage to grab that punch then you can pull it to the side of his other arm and force him off of you by pushing with your shoulder, maybe even get the arm bar right there.

.. and so on, and so on

Giving him your back is not a horrible thing. Wrist control is one of the fundamentals of wrestling. Get that and you'll be alright.

Tank had it on one arm for a minute - too bad he didn't know anything about wrestling and he wasn't more mobile on the ground .. due to his large gut .. or he could have gotten out. Vitor was a lot faster than those guys.

&gt;&gt; To be bound by traditional martial art style or styles is the way of the mindless, enslaved martial artist, but to be inspired by the traditional martial art and to achieve further heights is the way of genius. - Bruce Lee

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 8/22/2002 4:27am

From that position I go for hammerlocks and kneebars.

**Triangle** · Posted On: 8/27/2002 4:57pm

I Choke You, what's your beef with BJJ?

BJJ is genuinely a complete ground-fighting system, but as with all systems it has its share of problems. The main problem being that it relies far too much on lapels, sleeves, belt-grabbing, etc, to work its techniques.

Half of the ground-fight dynamic is fighting from the bottom cause you're either there or on top, and so since the guard is the best place to be if you can't be on top, why isn't it important?

FACT: It generally is not a good idea to give your back.

9chambers · Posted On: 8/27/2002 6:14pm

I agree that if you can, you want to be on your back facing up so you can see what is happening and control it - but being on all fours is far from defenseless. Being on your belly on the ground, yea - that kinda sucks.