Which Ninjitsu ryu are legit?

**Rock Ape** · Posted On: 8/24/2010 11:39am

Who out side of Japan legitimately teaches either form of Kukishin ?

What method of grading or licensing is used ?

Does either Kukishin method appear in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten ?

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 8/24/2010 12:49pm

Originally Posted by Wilf Muecke

[COLOR=Wheat]Well, I hope we won't have to discuss that all the time

Why? You bumped the thread but didn't want discussion?

Probably said user knows more about lineages,
as I'm not really that much interested in them.
Is your point "Who knows less than another is
automatically always wrong and vice versa." ?

Who said you were wrong? My point? Don't bump threads to correct someone when there may be more to the story. You have made two assumptions about the poster based on a couple of short sentences. Kind of like you have done to me twice now.

You really should stop trying to "read between the lines." If I think you are wrong I will tell you with zero restraint. Most people on this board will do that so, if you want your stay to be enjoyable, you might want to forget what has happened to you on other boards.

**Wilf Muecke** · Posted On: 8/24/2010 5:14pm

Hello again "It is Fake".

Okay....probably we're just not used
talk with one another and therefore
do both misjudge some things ???

I'll try to explain my personal, limited view:

Via google I accidently got aware of this topic here
and I saw said sentence which I read very often
and "as usual" nobody said something about that
other version of the story told by the kuki family.
As I was already here, I thought it would be a
good idea to mention that other story which
to me seems to be much more plausible.
Furthermore after 20 years of bujinkan
im not in, but since quite a while in
contact with the kukishin-ryû &
therefore felt a need to state
my differing/other opinions.
I just gave the readers
further information.

If I bumped anything, I'm sorry. I just stumbled over a
topic which probably many others will stumble over, too.
As one can stumble over this thread today, I think that it
doesn't really matter, if it's 2 days, 4 months or 8 years old.

Originally Posted by It is Fake

My point? Don't bump threads to correct someone when there
may be more to the story. You have made two assumptions
about the poster based on a couple of short sentences.

As I said, in this case the kuki declared
publicly what in their opinion is or isn't
- maybe there isn`t more to that story.

I can not remember to have made assumptions
about anyone - I don't know anybody here.
Furthermore, me myself I thought longtime,
that takamatsu sensei "saved" kukishin-ryû.

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Kind of like you have done to me twice now
[making assumptions about somebody] .

To be true what I felt was something like
"I just give an info and get told not to argue with
people who have most likely bigger balls than me.".

Concerning your further points:
I did try to read the lines, not in between.
Experiences with other boards, dôjô etc.
are always the same: everywhere you find
people you praise elsewhere and some you
don't think very positive of for some reason.
On this board here, I'm not experienced enough
to say anything about only one of its members.

Outside Japan momentarily there is no shibu dôjô
but only 5 official students (2= small training group?).
While modern ranks exist, grading is the old system.
Unfortunately my bad eyes are tired but on page 240 of my
BRD e.g. kukishinden-happô-...(probably "biken")-jutsu is listed.

**Styygens** · Posted On: 8/26/2010 8:40pm

Wilf Muecke;

Thank you for taking a few moments to discuss this issue. I know it has popped up in several places. Wikipedia is probably the most visible flashpoint as many Bujinkan members with an imperfect history of Kukishin Ryu keep changing the article to reflect the Bujinkan stories.

There are many stories floating around about Takamatsu's relationship with Kukishin Ryu. There's the one you mentioned: that Takamatsu "saved the school from extinction!" There's also the story that Takamatsu originally intended to create a Kukishin Ninjutsu Ryu, but could not secure the Kuki family's permission and instead named his creation Togakure Ryu... It is no wonder the Kuki family has sought to distance themselves from the Bujinkan and other X-Kans.

Personally, I don't know what the truth is. Will we ever know? I suspect neither side is telling the whole story as they each have agendas. The most important thing is for X-kaners to learn there are several branches of Kukishin Ryu that are still in existence. Perhaps then they will quit with their rather provincial pronouncements about Kukishin Ryu history and give the other branches their due respect.

Are you a Kukishin Ryu student? I wanted to ask this earlier, but feared it might cut the conversation short. I know koryu don't like students to speak on their behalf without permission. I'm curious what your background is as a student of "Japanese Martial Arts" and why you felt so strongly about correcting this point. Thank you.

**Wilf Muecke** · Posted On: 8/28/2010 7:00am

Dear Styygens,

thank you for your answer.

Yes, many stories about takamatsu sensei etc. are in existence.
The biggest problem in bujinkan is - at least as I've experienced -
that even the people who don't want to seriously dig in Japanese
history, culture etc. feel a need to tell you some really nice stories.

Sometimes people with certain agendas did tell me things about
my teachers which were absolutely not true & in the end it
ended always with a sentence it already started with:
"Well, but a friend of mine did hear that somebody
told to another person that he heard, that... ."
Probably I don't need to mention, that very
often the persons never met my teachers.

The reason I do tell this is because in the koryû I did never
experience such things or at least nobody (?) would be
silly enough to not to try to back up what he says.

Concerning takamatsu especially:
As we know, the main line of kukishin-ryû is still in existence.
As we know, takamatsu sensei created a new kuki-branch.
As we see, the kuki talk of takamatsu sensei with respect
and they acknowlege his efforts to save many scrolls
from their archive (which is part of the sôke line).
They even say, that takamatsu had some
problems with the kuki's art and did part
(meaning that he was not expelled!!!).

Besides that, everything I heard from bujinkan's side was only
thoughts from members (which live often from selling their arts
or students, who have a lot of trust in their teachers who, again,
live often from selling their arts) but not from hatsumi sensei himself.
To be true: I don't know what hatsumi tells sometimes to others or not.
Nevertheless I could very often proof bujinkan members to be wrong
by citing their own headmaster (and they didn't really enjoy it).
I never met as much people knowing better - without digging
in these fields - about swords than sword polishers, about
history than historians etc, as I did met within bujinkan.

Originally Posted by Styygens

The most important thing is for X-kaners to learn there are several branches of Kukishin Ryu that are still in existence. Perhaps then
they will quit with their rather provincial pronouncements about
Kukishin Ryu history and give the other branches their due respect.

While the bujinkan (or better: many members of the bujinkan)
has allready been proven to be wrong in many places,
I have to admit, that at least some things will
probably remain unsettled these days.

As an important(?) side note, I'd like to ad, that I've been
in the bujinkan for 20 years before completely leaving
(some koryû don't allow training within bujinkan).
While one could - as many bujinkaners do -
see an agenda of mine, the basis I build
my decisions etc. on, has not really
changed in these years but the material
I do/can build these decisions on have a lot.

Originally Posted by Styygens

Are you a Kukishin Ryu student?

Simple answer: No, I'm not.
Less simple answer: No, but... . :laughing7

Originally Posted by Styygens

I know koryu don't like students to speak
on their behalf without permission.

Yes and reading most of the bujinkan theories, I do (probably) know why.
As you maybe noticed, I won't - and can't - tell you much more than
is already written on the kuki family's homepage or is made public
via the bujinkan forums or other martial arts related platforms.

Originally Posted by Styygens

I'm curious what your background is as a student of "Japanese Martial Arts" and why you felt so strongly about correcting this point. Thank you.

Well, although this doesn't really matter as a good or bad statement
stays exactly that independently from the person who made it,
I do understand your curiousness within the context.

When I started to train "ninjutsu", I was happy to find a real martial arts
which has an unbroken line of headmasters and saved the tradition
until the 1900s while our European martial arts have extincted.
With no internet, to get (good) informations about all the
topics we were interested in, were really hard to get.

While I did defend "ninjutsu" for the first 10 years,
it was then or a bit earlier that I became aware,
that I couldn't defend "ninjutsu" all along the line.
The next years I tried to defend still what I practiced
and furthermore tried to change bujinkaners' mind about
how to treat history, react constructional to critics etc.

Due to politics ("Who is not totally for us is automatically against us." or
"You don't have the right to make the people think about what's true.")
and me being very unhappy especially with most bujinkaner's sword-
(un)knowledge, I did begin to create an own ""style"", meaning I
created some forms which were meant only to teach some
of the very basic movements with the sword. As this has
been misunderstood by some as creating a real style,
there`ve been some arguments on internet-forums.

Nevertheless, this led finally to the first contact with some students
of the kukishin-ryû and as I see it, I'm finally arrived there I always
wanted to be, a traditional koryû, having the old grading system
and being nearly completely(?) free from the annoying politics.

I have also deep respect for this town's group of katori shintô students
but I'm not allowed to train both styles at the same time and as
kukishin-ryû is where I decided to go, I had to quit soon.