Which Ninjitsu ryu are legit?

[Iron Rooster]

Bujinkan is about as real as you going to get. I have not seen a technique that is not easily applied. They also haven't mentioned anything about poisoning my enemies and usurping their lifestyle, so it is better than Ashida Kim, right?

[Toby Christensen]

Thanks Iron Rooster.

Bujinkan for the project

[Sam Browning]

I just split this thread in order to save it. Shen and Dale, do not post in this thread, they will be erased. I do not want to see a continuation of your dislike for each other here. I don't care who started it. Take it to pm or trollshido.

[Toby Christensen]

Yes. I am researching a very important project to promote Bullshido and get me a job.

Take it somewhere else.

[Wilf Muecke]

Hello, I`m new to this board and indeoendently from this topic
being very old, I'd like to comment at least on one statement:

Takamatsu (Hatsumi's teacher) did pretty much save the Kukishinden
school because he had a copy of the schools Makimono that were lost.

For me this sounds like one of the "mysteries surrounding the ninja".
In Japanese there are for example things often less obvious, e.g.
scroll/a scroll/the scroll/scrolls or the scroll could be called
makimono and you don`t always know automatically,
which of these possibilities is meant exactly.

Looking at the homepage of the kuki-family
you can read about this story and they tell
people like you / Gezere to learn first about
the facts before spreading around rumours.

Yes, takamatsu sensei has rescued some scrolls.
Unfortunately (again, look at the kuki-homepage)
they don`t seem to deal with martial arts (techniques)
exclusively or where they do so, mainly with arts which
were already "outdated"/dead at takamtsu sensei's time.

Indepently from that, the martial arts are transmitted within a
shihanke-lineage and (at least openly) not by the sôke-lineage
- but the scrolls saved by takamatsu belong to the kuki's archive.

[It is Fake]

Hello, I`m new to this board and indeoendently from this topic
being very old, I'd like to comment at least on one statement:


For me this sounds like one of the "mysteries surrounding the ninja".
In Japanese there are for example things often less obvious, e.g.
scroll/a scroll/the scroll/scrolls or the scroll could be called
makimono and you don`t always know automatically,
which of these possibilities is meant exactly.

Looking at the homepage of the kuki-family
you can read about this story and they tell
people like you / Gezere to learn first about
the facts before spreading around rumours.

Yes, takamatsu sensei has rescued some scrolls.
Unfortunately (again, look at the kuki-homepage)
they don`t seem to deal with martial arts (techniques)
exclusively or where they do so, mainly with arts which
were already "outdated"/dead at takamtsu sensei's time.

Indepently from that, the martial arts are transmitted within a
shihanke-lineage and (at least openly) not by the sôke-lineage
- but these scrolls saved by takamatsu belong to the kuki's archive.

This is going to be one of those lurk more and post less comments. Your post is not a reason to bump a thread.

Second you might want to look at Gezere's credentials and take his post in context.

Anyway welcome to bullshido. Are you fluent in Japanese?

[Wilf Muecke]

[...] you might want to look at Gezere's
credentials and take his post in context.

I don`t think that context does really matter that much in this case.
He doesn't seem to believe in the "bujinkan = ninjutsu"-thing, okay.

What I atttacked was his clear statement that takamatsu sensei
did save the kukishinden school (this alone is already misleading,
as this could be mistaken for "kukishinden ryû". Kukishinden ryû
would mean, that he talks about the bujinkan's gendai style,
as originally it's kukishin ryû or kukishinden tenshin
hyôhô but outside bujinkan not kukishinden ryû).

Sorry for me nitpicking all the time but I think
- and I learned - that without it, one tends
to believe to easily in things which often
aren't what they seemed to be first.



About credentials:
At university we do talk about works of doctors of xy
& independently from their credentials have to judge
or at least discuss what they do write in books etc.
based on what we did learn ourselves at university,
as one's credentials are one (important?) thing
and knowledge about some very specific
topics, circumstances etc. another.

Anyway welcome to bullshido.

Thank you very much.

Are you fluent in Japanese?

No, but the information is available in English, anyway.
on the kuki's homepage you can see, what scrolls exactly
takamatsu sensei did recompile/copy for the kuki back then.

[Rock Ape]

I've moved this thread out of the wiki discussion forum because the thread content doesn't exactly fit the criteria for that forum and, given that it's (partly) related to JMA, I thought it better in here.

[It is Fake]

Basically, you are trying to educate someone who most likely knows more about Japanese Martial Lineage than you.

I will contact him so, he can add more context to your assumptions about his knowledge.

[Wilf Muecke]

Well, I hope we won't have to discuss that all the time
as that was absolutely not what I was writing here for.

Probably said user knows more about lineages,
as I'm not really that much interested in them.
Is your point "Who knows less than another is
automatically always wrong and vice versa." ?

We see here a couple of pages and I did comment on
one single sentence only - there's the problem ?
If you don't agree with what the kuki do write
about their lieage, that's not my problem.

[...] there is a view in which all the documents which had been preserved by the Kuki family were reduced to ashes when their house burned down completely in the US air strikes on Akashi during the War, which is rather misunderstanding. We feel furious for those who comment on the Kuki archives, just referring to the second-hand information without looking at existing documents. The view that all the documents were "burned" is based on the four-line sentence 1 Takamatsu Chosui wrote on July 20, 1947 in the preface to Amatsutatarahibunn Kaidokuhen and also the conversation Chosui had with the people concerned [...]

1 "[the Kuki documents] were lost in an air raid in 1945, when they were preserved by the 73th head of the Kukis. Fortunately, I [Chosui] had got an opprtunity to read the documents before it. [...]"

Once again concerning kukishin vs kukishinden:
Here, I was a bit imprecise. In the context
of "takamtsu saved kukishinden school" it's
absolutely not and can't be very misleading.
In general it can be misleading not to exactly
name the school we talk about - I had it so very
often with bujinkan members who mixed up everything.